The Steroids Thread

Discussion in 'Baseball' started by 655321, Sep 28, 2004.

  1. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Amazing what happens when a leadoff hitter gets moved the 3rd spot.
     
  2. ProfZodiac

    ProfZodiac Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ted Williams was a scrawny sonovabitch. But he's still the greatest non-juiced hitter who ever lived. Even better, there was this little thing called 'The Williams Shift', since he always put the ball in right field. Rather than make a simple stance change to spray the Monster, he kept hitting to right field. And he STILL is the last player to hit .400 in a season.
     
  3. ProfZodiac

    ProfZodiac Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Even that's not going to get you an additional 60 RBIs.
     
  4. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Have you ever watched baseball?
     
  5. fiddlestick

    fiddlestick New Member

    Jul 17, 2001
    The 4 8 0
    RBI is not a good measurement by which to judge if someone was using steroids. The increase in HR explains some of it. The other part depends on where he hit in the batting order (Bonds used to hit 1 or 2, then was moved down to run producing positions), how many people got on base ahead of him, and what he did in those situations.

    Adrian Beltre more than doubled his career high in HR this season. Not one mention of juice.

    There's so much more to getting into the HOF besides BA, this point doesn't even need to be discussed.

    Very presumptuous, even based on the 'evidence'.

    Maybe he stopped recently? Back to the stats:

    Code:
     Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG   TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
     2001 36 SFG NL 153  476  129  156  32  2  73  137  13  3 177  93  .328  .515  .863  411   0   2  35   9   5
     2002 37 SFG NL 143  403  117  149  31  2  46  110   9  2 198  47  .370  .582  .799  322   0   2  68   9   4
    
    The year after he 'broke' the record, during which time we know he was juiced, his walks went up 21. But his average went up 42 points. With fewer homeruns, fewer hits, fewer games, fewer runs, fewer doubles, fewer RBIs.
    [/QUOTE]


    AVG has even less to do with 'roids than RBI. The average went up because the AB went down (BB went up)

    I think it's clear that Bonds has cheated, but I don't follow the conclusions you're trying to make from your statistics.
     
  6. hangthadj

    hangthadj Member+

    A.S. Roma
    Mar 27, 2001
    Zone 14
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Apples and Oranges.

    Steroids, if taken are taken to give yourself the an advantage and better chance to win. Gambling on the other hand puts the whole game into disrepute. At least when I am at the ballpark watching juiced players I know they are trying to win. However, should Rose have had money on teh Reds for Thursday evening instead of Wed, will he bring his best bullpen option out Wed or save it till Thursday. My money spent to watch to teams play to win is worthless at that point. Rose's offense was much greater and a greater insult to fans.
     
  7. hangthadj

    hangthadj Member+

    A.S. Roma
    Mar 27, 2001
    Zone 14
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Really, all I got is a placebo. Nearly any sport relies on much as on mental strength as physical. If he believed this was supposed to cure arthritis, well then...

    I'm not justifying it, just trying to answer your question...
     
  8. 655321

    655321 New Member

    Jul 21, 2002
    The Mission, SF
    Oh ********ing please...

    Where in the hell are you getting this?

    Why is everyone so ********ing livid about this compared to the Ken Caminiti love fest thread a few months ago?
     
  9. fiddlestick

    fiddlestick New Member

    Jul 17, 2001
    The 4 8 0
    I guarantee Barry Bonds will be more fondly remembered after he passes as well.
    Ted Williams was an insufferable prick during his playing days and look at how he was lauded later in life.
     
  10. BlueMeanie

    BlueMeanie New Member

    Apr 1, 2002
    EastSIIIIDE
    Yeah, but after he passed, he was deep-frozen and beheaded. So it's a wash.
     
  11. TheSlipperyOne

    TheSlipperyOne Member+

    Feb 29, 2000
    Denver
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Was he working with people who were being indicted on steroid distribution charges and has testimony of his saying he took steroids been reported?
     
  12. fiddlestick

    fiddlestick New Member

    Jul 17, 2001
    The 4 8 0
    Neither was Bonds in the late 80's/early 90's which was when Prof was pointing out the large jump in HR.


    And besides, everyone knows that you can go down to the Dominican and get bionic implants and they'll leak a story about a 'botched apendectomy.'
     
  13. fiddlestick

    fiddlestick New Member

    Jul 17, 2001
    The 4 8 0
    Well I'll tell you one thing--If I've got some tendonitis, or arthritis or whatever, I'm going to the doctor to get treated.
    I'm not going to rub some flax oil my friend gave me or pop something under my tongue my personal trainer gave me.
     
  14. ProfZodiac

    ProfZodiac Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jan 17, 2003
    Boston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, man. Ted Williams rubbed people the wrong way. Barry Bonds is a bonafide jackass.
     
  15. fiddlestick

    fiddlestick New Member

    Jul 17, 2001
    The 4 8 0
    Semantics
     
  16. 655321

    655321 New Member

    Jul 21, 2002
    The Mission, SF
    Still doesn't change my point...
     
  17. biggyv

    biggyv Member

    May 18, 2000
    PGH PA
    Clearly, the fact that Bonds is not well-liked has clearly had a lot to do with the tenor of the discussion. Other players escaped this kind of scrutiny. See McGwire, Mark.
     
  18. 655321

    655321 New Member

    Jul 21, 2002
    The Mission, SF
    Giambi story leaked on Thursday...Bonds story leaked on Friday...the same day the Vic Conte interview is being broadcast!!

    Considering this grand jury testimony has been around for quite awhile, I find timing of this news highly suspect.
     
  19. biggyv

    biggyv Member

    May 18, 2000
    PGH PA
    Oh clearly. Grand jury tesimony is supposed to be sealed. I think the feds are trying to win over the court of public opinion for a possible jury trial. This is a TAX EVASION case.
     
  20. Metros#1

    Metros#1 New Member

    May 14, 2001
    NJ
    A. Bonds always could read pitches and had a compact and efficient swing, but those qualities did not make him an out-of-this-world power hitter. The increase of his bat speed essentially made him unpitchable, which is the direct result of bulking up, which is closely related to his drug use. The drugs also made him recover easier. Otherwise, his body would have slowed down already. If you need a more detailed explanation, see http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/tom_verducci/12/03/bonds.qa/index.html.
    B. Why don’t you look up his HR per AB before 1999 and compare it to the ratio after 1999 (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/baseball/mlb/players/3918/). It should give you an idea. I would say, factoring in slower bat speed and aging body, the difference is at least 120 homers.

    In other words, without the drugs, he may have around 580 homers but ready to retire. Great numbers but no Ruth/Mays/Aaron.
     
  21. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    While I don't doubt that there are many cheaters out there, please provide solid evidence rather than make unsubstantiated remark that are meant to be truthful. The ones in bold are those for which solid evidence need be provided.
     
  22. TheSlipperyOne

    TheSlipperyOne Member+

    Feb 29, 2000
    Denver
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
  23. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seeing a ball and hitting it is one thing. Seeing that ball and hitting for power is something different. 'roids can turn a double into a homer, a long sacrafice fly into a 2 run home run. And you know that.
     
  24. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Scout was talking about somebody on Bonds' team, maybe the guy hitting behind Bonds. That guy took the spot of somebody else, not just because of talent, but because he could hit for power, as well. This somebody else saw the problem and saw that his salary was going to be effected downward so he began. But his salary demands were too great for the Giants, so he went elsewhere. And so the cycle decends downwards.
     
  25. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This was tough to make the distinction in my mind when it first emerged that Bonds was involved with 'roids. But I just thought back to the fact that he was an a$$hole long before he was using steroids, and comparing that ability waaaay back when he was a Pirate to how his now shows that he is a somewhat different player, specifically in regards to his power. I respect his ability to hit the ball, but not to hit it a long way.
     

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