I think you're correct, trouble is we will never know because of the prejudice that English managers face! Graham Potter has done wonders with Brighton but don't expect him to be given any chance whatsoever at any club that actually has the resources to ever challenge for the title - simply because of where he was born.
I don't see any prejudice against English managers. They probably get chances they don't deserve, if anything.
I’m curious as to what examples you have of them getting chances they don’t deserve? Lampard is the only one I can think of in about the last 20 years (who’s been recruited to a UCL club) as we know he’s a club legend and they had a transfer ban, so there was mitigating circumstances. I remember when AC Milan hired Allegri, after he was recently sacked by Cagliari after finish 9th and being 12th in the league. That sort of situation would literally never happen in England.
Lampard is the one I was thinking of primarily, though plenty of ex-players have been given chances based on their playing career rather than anything they've done in coaching.
I would be interested to hear about them? If you are one of these guys that is prejudiced against English managers and seriously believes that there is something in English DNA that means you are uncapable of ever managing a top team I would be interested in hearing your theory? What happened to English DNA between the times of Chapman, Ramsay, Paisley, Fagan, Clough or Bobby Robson?
Players given chances based on playing career is not an English phenomenon, it happens all over the world take Pirlo as a prime example (promoted to a much higher position than any English manager I can ever remember). Lampard is the only example of an English manager being given a chance before his time at a top table club, and is the exception, I think you’d be hard pressed to find another example in the last 20 years.
I don’t think you or anyone else would legitimately call someone a top a class manager (the title of this thread) unless they worked for top a tier/table club. And the fact is these clubs in England don’t hire English managers. People like Allegri/ Tuchel/ Klopp/ Conte (who wouldn’t have been perceived as top class at Cagliari / Mainz/ Siena) had a very similar record to someone like Eddie Howe or Graham Potter in their respective leagues before one of the big boys in their own country took a punt on them, this doesn’t happen in England.
Yes exactly, and you have to ask 'why'? As for the current best English managers I don't think there are many in world football that could do what Mark Robins has done at Coventry!? Absolutely stunning job, I have to sit and wonder if Guardiola could do what Robins has done on the resources that Robins has done it on!? Of course we'll never know because Guardiola doesn't take jobs unless he can spend hundreds of millions of pounds on the worlds best players. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...hs-bottom-tier-Premier-League-day-dreams.html
That surely proves my point about prejudice! Here is the list of clubs that the English guys get to manage:- QPR Stoke Brighton (pre Potter days) Burnley Swansea Bournemouth Crystal Palace Leicester City Are we seriously to wonder why Craig Shakespeare at Leicester has the best win percentage at that time!!! Lets look at some similar sized clubs that went the 'Johnny Foreigner' route instead:- Norwich Watford Huddersfield Why hasn't their foreign managers gotten those clubs up there challenging for the league I wonder!! Guardiola has spent well over a billion pounds on players yet we laud him as some kind of managerial genius, if Klopp is simply a better manager than English ones because he hasn't been cursed with the defective 'English' genes then why does fellow German managerial master Farke keep taking Norwich City down?
What is with you and these bizarre rambles about English genes? Coaches are educated to become what they are. We do a poor job of educating them just like - until relatively recently - we did a poor job of educating our players. And guess what? Before that time we used to blame our weak squads on a lack of opportunities too...
We didn't do a 'poor job' educating them! That's just Euro stereotypical bollox, we had to spend a couple of decades of Europeans lording it over English football telling us English players had no 'technical ability' and English football was just 'kick and rush', that was/is bollox too. Before the Heysel disaster got us banned from Europe English clubs had won 7 of the previous nine Champions Leagues and had a finalist in 8 of the 9! That is some record considering we are so woefully short of football tactical know how in England!
The game is constantly moving, and it moved on without us. It's absolutely true that English players had serious technical deficiencies, especially during the Rooney era, and the football was lacking too. The quality of players has massively improved post-EPPP and the football has improved too, mostly off the back of very rich clubs signing the absolute best coaches in the world.
So you believe that Milner, Young and Downing were on the same sort of level as the forward players we have today? What about Heskey?
No but Scholes, Lampard, Cole (to name but a few) etc weren't too shabby! Paul Gascoine was the best player in the world in 1990, he is still the best English player I've ever seen and if it wasn't for the fact that he was an alcoholic he would have stayed the best player in the world too!
Maybe, but what does Gascoigne have to do with anything? He's certainly not from the Rooney era. Lampard was 36 when Rooney became captain, Scholes was 39 and Cole was 35. There was an obvious generational gap between then and now. Why do you think the FA overhauled youth development system in this country? Why do you think we're suddenly producing so many technical players?
One of the issues is the wealth of the Premier League. The top 6 clubs can go and get an off the shelf established top manager from abroad. It does make it harder for English managers to get a shot. A lot of English managers play pretty negative low block football which is unlikely to make them popular choices among the fans of bigger clubs. There is a lack of modern progressive coaches among the English contingent. Guys like Potter and Howe who are more modern would have got bigger clubs in say Germany but then the likes of Dortmund can't compete for the elite managers.
Gascoigne played from 84 until 04, of course at his peak it was the 90's, Lampard from 95 until 16, Scholes 93 until 13, Le Tissier from 86-2003, Hoddle 75-95, Joe Cole 98-18. What 'era' are you talking about exactly? Here is a reminder of how good Gascoinge was:- Le Tissier was no slouch:- I have never seen ANYBODY score goals like Le Tissier! But of course Gascoigne and Le Tissier are English so they can only do 'kick and rush' right!?