LINK. Seriously. Link that. At most schools you'd get paid for 10 days total. W/o a link to establish this nonsense, you've shown how ignorant you are. I work 60-70 hours a week, fyi. When I was an elementary school teacher, I worked 45+ hours AND it's ASSUMED you continue your education. B/c teaching kids to read, write and add isn't "real"? What f***ing "real" world do YOU live in where these skills aren't needed? FFS... the cop has to write reports, you nimwit. Is that a "fake life skill?" And teachers don't? Uh ... prep work??? Do you know how draining that is? Teaching 35 kids 6 hours a day isn't like playing with your 4 year old niece for 2 hours a few times a year, fyi. It's still not enough. It's draining. And as a university professor, I get summers and holidays "off" but they never are. Ever. I dare you to do it for one week. Prep time??? Continuing education??? Conferences? Parent meetings? Faculty meetings? Committee meetings? Meetings w/ admin? Meetings w/ resource counselors? Documenting kids w/ learning disabilities? Meetings w/ parents about said child? Evaluations? Paperwork? Grading??????
The idea of unlimited sick days is kind of hilarious, if you think about it. If you never had to show up to work, but could never get fired -- who wouldn't want that job?? People would be beating down doors trying to get teaching jobs.
You are both correct. Part of that post was too much and over the top. Let me say this........good teachers are underpaid, bad teachers are overpaid and teachers unions have to go. I want the USA to have the best eductation system in the world, there is a place for dialogue as we don't currently have anything near that. Americans spend much more on schooling than thevast majority of countries that outscore us. Its sad, its unacceptable. Are all teachers to blame? no. Are some? yes. Good Lord. What a statement. You should do all of us a favor and find another profession. If one post makes you 'despise' someone then you shouldn't be a teacher. Flat out Iceblink, you will NOT put up with babysitting 150 reprobates a day for 35 years but you WILL turn into one of the angry, pi55ed off teachers who despise their students. One presentation of my thoughts makes you despise someone???????? If I said I was a Nazi, or a communist or a murderer.........ya you can despise someone for that, but for not buying into the myth of underpaid overworked teachers. WOW. Don't worry, get your sleep. TRY THIS LINK read the article and go down to the tables at the bottom, we are dead last amoungst fellow English speaking countries of Canada, UK, Ireland, NZ and Australia. DEAD LAST amoungst the English Mother Tongue countries!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are being beaten by many more too. Its wrong and its time you teachers figure out how to solve it. How is the US the 'cutting edge' of pedagogy? With results like these it either is a brand new science or its not the 'cutting edge'. It can't be, to use a soccer analogy its like saying Southampton is the cutting edge of being a soccer coach and the coaching methodology in the Premier League. Where are the results to back it up? UCLA Carlos. I don't wish to insult you, and as I've said before I was over the top in my other post. I'm frustrated at three things...... 1/ USA is behind and falling fast in education, yet we spend more than most 2/ the education system is designed so good teachers get zero reward and bad teachers get protected (from a financial point) 3/ anyone who dares be critical of the structure is suddenly a 'despised' ignoramous. You should be teaching kids to think and formulate opinions on the facts, not parrot on paper what the teacher mentioned 2 days ago. One final thing. This idea you work other hours is great I believe you. But people in other professions also do offsite work. Its not something we foister on teachers only. We should all be able to have a discussion without despising one another.
Your point is valid. What I was driving at was the bankability of sick hours over years and years, an unlimited supply. As an aside.............try firing a tenured teacher. I would argue more Americans have walked on the moon in one year than tenured teachers get fired in one year.
I'm not even going to dignify him with a response. He's at best a troll and at worst an ITN sockpuppet.
Okay, I just re-read it thanks to uclacarlos' quote and I do have to respond. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (gasp) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (oh, God, my sides hurt) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (make it stop) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA (for the love of God) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... Okay, I'm better now. Shelts, I taught in South Korea for two and a half years. The idea that they have 'truly enriched teaching' is, quite literally, the funniest thing I've ever read.
1. Is education the only industry that does that? No. Categorically no. And you know what... Ppl get sick. They get injured. They have major shit happen to them. If they're saving their employers over a thousand buck per year year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year... ... and then they get ill... ... why the f*** should they have to be limited to 10 days? Do you realize that a lot of the countries you put up as a model have state sponsored sick days, that if you get ill, the state pays your salary. Oh. And your medical coverage is free.
I'm no expert.........but this seems to be what standardized tests want.........and if you don't pass the test.......your not graduating. So there is that...... Maybe this would change somewhat if we hired English-history-humanities teachers because of how well they..........you know teach and know their subject and have something new and interesting to bring to the table and not if they can help the football team after that little annoyance called "school" is over. I find it fundamentally wrong that to even have a prayer of getting employed I'm most likely going to have to chase around a soccer coaching certification, and even that will probably be a stretch.
Teaching jobs are in abundance if you dont mind moving. That is one thing I have noticed with my colleagues. Many sit around and wait for their alma mater to have an open position and substitute for years. I, on the other hand, will pick up and leave this God-forsaken place in a heartbeat. Try teachers-teachers.com.
Ok... I've got a few while I'm waiting for some laundry. Anyway, just because I don't like one ignorant fool doesn't mean that I despise my students. Anyway, you are the just the latest of a thousand people just like you who say the same ridiculous things. In any case, it wasn't one post; it was multiple posts that led to my opinion of your worth. You may be a wonderful person. I doubt it, but my opinion of you is based on your actions... not on some secondhand account of what you did. Your opinion of me as a teacher is based on some drivel you read somewhere and obviously not based on any firsthand knowledge of the teaching profession. It's sad, really. You think my students are reprobates? Frankly, I don't think the first sentence of your paragraph makes sense. As far as I can tell, those two choices are not antitheses, so I can't really respond to your nonsense. No, one presentation of your thoughts did not make me despise someone. It made me despise you personally. I believe you to be part of what's wrong with society... well, one of the many problems... but you touched on something that is important to me and proved yourself ignorant. Sorry, I despise willful ignorance. Yes, if you declared yourself a murderer or Nazi I would despise you. I would not despise you for declaring yourself a communist. In general, the first two are hateful, and the other is just a form of government. You are not just "not buying into the myth of underpaid, overworked teachers." You are continuing to spread the myth that it's a myth. You make my job harder. I'm going to go back to your original post and explain my points now. I don't know why I will bother. You will ignore everything I say, as you are already stuck in your opinion, and listening to reason doesn't seem to be your strong suit.
I do not disagree with this, in general. I would not make this sweeping generalization regarding the entire US educational system... but there are so many problems. Ridiculous. Others have mentioned this too, but this is false. I am expected to be at work every day. I have a colleague that was genuinely sick and missed several days this year... nothing particularly excessive, but she had some health issues. She was just given a written reprimand for missing too many days. It was under 10 for the entire school year. When you are written up for using your sick days, I believe that would be filed under "N" for NOT ********ING UNLIMITED! This is laughable, and I believe others have laughed at you. In my city, our union is inept and corrupt. That said, there is evidence that if we did not have the union, the city would treat us extremely unfairly. This evidence is the charter schools that are becoming more prevalent here. These charter schools make the teachers work year-round, and, yes, I understand that people in other professions work year-round as well... but, for the most part, they actually get to leave their work at work. I don't have that luxury. They work longer hours as well, and they make substantially less money. These schools aren't doing any better than the regular public schools as far as NCLB. And here's the kicker... the charter school teachers don't even have to be certified in their subject areas!!! A friend of mine who was displaced from my school is now teaching algebra at a charter school. He's an English and science teacher. The funny thing is that the charter schools are starting to unionize. Most of them were created for the purpose of union-busting anyway. I have a 403b and my pension. If I put in the years, why shouldn't I get it? This is an issue with administration. I switched careers from the private sector and saw this there as well. It's a silly practice. That said, a good administrator won't spend wildly. We could always use more books, more technology, more professional development opportunities... it just has to be spent wildly. Any administrator who spends money on anything just to get rid of it isn't efficient and should probably be replaced. My administration should be replaced. (shhh. Don't tell them I said so). Absolutely true. Here, the big thing was to turn large schools into "small schools." They would take a large high school and shut it down, turning it into 4-5 small high schools..... each with a brand new principal. Ridiculous. We need more teachers and smaller class sizes.... not more administrators. I agree that there is too much dead weight. There's more dead weight than this, in fact, but I believe you said something later about this, so I'll respond to that afterward. This angers me. My school's hours as 8 A.M. to 2:51 P.M. That said, I show up early, and leave quite late. Again, this is where the fact that teachers bring more work home than most other professions comes into play. Teachers are lucky to get a single period to grade papers, and that is often filled with meetings. I have an AP Eng. Language class with 37 freakin' kids in it. If I have each of them write a two-page essay, that's a hell of a lot of reading/grading. When do you think I do it? If you guess "after my lovely waltz out of the school," then you win a prize! That's ONE CLASS! You're right, btw. Most teachers do have 150 kids. Imagine the grading! And, by the way... how about the lesson planning? The reading? I agree. On April 15, I had the kids answer a journal prompt about taxes. They know nothing. There should be a personal finance class available as an elective if not as a requirement. That said, at my school, there are a lot of requirements and remediation programs that take up periods of kids' schedules. There isn't a lot of room for it. I'd love to see it. I'd argue that there are more. The number of them at my school is sad. This is where we will agree and disagree at the same time! Unions protect these people. It's sad that it happens... but, at the same time... the unions don't protect high quality new teachers. This is one of my beefs with the union. But, frankly, the city negotiates the contracts. They make a lot of the choices. The union protects lazy old people who burned out years ago. I don't argue that. That said, it also protects me in many ways.... and many of the people that I do respect. The city would be very unfair to teachers if it were not for the union. It's a bad system, but getting rid of the unions would be disastrous. Checking to see what else you said.
For the record... this was the main post that began my dislike of you, Shelts. I don't necessarily disagree, but I think it depends on the cop and the teacher. On the books, I work 36.25 hours. However, I mentioned the hours I put in outside of those hours. I grade papers. I plan lessons. I call parents and guardians. I go to meetings. This was the main issue. This is so stupid, it's unbelievable. What the hell are you talking about? You think teachers don't deal with people's real world situations?! What?! I deal with domestic abuse, theft, assault. At my school, we've lost four students to violence outside of school this year. I have to deal with screaming parents, children who don't want to learn and don't value education, children who do want to learn and do value education but who are constantly being stymied by the aforementioned apathetic children. I deal with drugs of all sorts, gangs... Come spend a day at my school; you'll see real world. Um... just read my mind on this one. Some are great. Some are lazy and overpaid. A lot of them really do seem to like donuts. That said, I've spoken to cops who hear about what school I teach at and say, "Whoo. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes." Again... see above. This is something that is, frankly, extremely hard to do. I don't really know what your point is. What do you do for a living? I bet I'd be better at your job than you would be at mine. When I worked in the corporate sector, I got three weeks of vacation per year. I get two "personal business" days a year now that I'm a teacher. This all works out pretty evenly, I've found. Some do. Half my summer is spent in meetings, professional developments, and doing curriculum development. Some do, though. But I spend much of my summer thinking about how I can make things better the following year. Are police salary schedules public? There are two web sites that you can go to and look me up by name to check to see what I make. Apparently, it's public information. It's also incorrect and overstates my salary by several thousand dollars. A teacher's first year on the job is one of the hardest things anyone has to do. There is no way that a new teacher puts in so few hours... especially after school. I don't suppose you'll ever give up on this point, even though so many have said this was incorrect. When I first started teaching, I had no sick days. I had to work for several months before I accumulated any at all. I was lucky enough not to be sick in my first several months, but if I had been ill, I would have had "Zero Days." Teachers get shot at and some cops sleep on the job. That said, this really shouldn't be comparing cops and teachers. They are both completely necessary. The great ones are great, and the crappy ones suck... in both respects. Heh. So you admit that teachers aren't respected any longer? It certainly isn't common. You sure don't respect them. Where are you from? Half your posts are strewn with improper mechanics... bad stuff too! Even some of the ones I call "Fatal Errors!" There are many reasons that kids in different countries do better. Believe it or not, sometimes it's the nature of their first spoken language. I'm a teacher. I have students, not clients. I'm not there to serve them. I'm supposed to teach them. This isn't just semantics. I am not familiar with the teaching methods in these countries. That said, there are some countries that view education differently and it serves them better. For example, for the Chinese people who do receive education, science is apparently viewed very differently. I heard a man interviewed on NPR who said that we are obsessed with science facts. This is just rote memorization. Apparently, in China they look more at the scientific process and how to think like scientists. I believe this is better. That said, for the most part, it's an administrative decision. Here in America, there is always the teaching method/strategy of the year... and it always seems to change. Administrators with no experience in the classroom decide that an article that they read makes sense, and they decide to make every teacher in America learn this new method. Of course, it's replaced the following year with another. Of course, this new one is the same as one from 20 years ago that has been updated with a brand new name! I'm too tired to go on.
Iceblink and UCLACarlos..........both of your arguments remind me of a strange book I once read. The front cover, jacket liner and back cover screamed that the book was going to uncover something. The first paragraph boldly stated how the author was going to get to the bottom of the issue. The last cover argued how the author proved his theory. The problem was the actual heart of the book kept saying how the other side had some valid and some good points. Both of you appear to be mad at the message I am sending. That US kids are falling behind. That Northern European (and Quebec) countries are scoring better as English as a second language than US kids. My belief is the unions are allowing this. No other job is under performance allowed, almost promoted.
Dude. Leave the textual analysis to the professionals, m'kay. I'll concede that the US education has major problems. But: 1. You don't know what you're talking about. 2. You're woefully ignorant. 3. My problem is that you say that teachers work from 9-2:30, are overpaid and have unlimited sick days. That's a load of f**king CRAP. The fact that you think that my main issue w/ you is that the US is lagging behind other countries is seriously laughable. I don't know how much clearer I can be w/ my critiques of you. YOU EMBODY THIS "LAGGING BEHIND" THAT YOU SO CRITICIZE. Dude. Your reading comprehension skills SUCK. Take a look at the number of times I've parsed up your posts. You have a good 30+ fragments to work with. Now add up the times that I address your myths about teaching vs. the times I disagree w/ your assertion that the US is lagging behind other countries. It'll be something like 30/1. Can you explain what on earth the bolded part means? Go to the library. Ask a reference librarian to help you find scholarly studies on the role of teacher's unions in the declining performance of K-12 students in the US. Find a study. ANY STUDY. And then return with your report that confirms your hypothesis that unions are contributing to declining performance. Absent any substantiation, it's beyond the time for you to shut the f*** up. Thanks for hi-jacking my thread, btw. How f***ing hard is it to start your own thread. Oh, I forgot. Reading comprehension >>>>>>> rocket science.
Thanks, I'll check it out. A dilemma I'm having I'm hoping someone here can shed some light on for me. I'll be done with my undergrad next year, and am hoping to go to grad school immediately (for a secondary ed/certification program, probably 2 years with student teaching.) I am going to try to get the MTEL tests (ed license tests for Mass) done this summer/next year while I still have access to my school's history department resources (prep sessions etc) If I pass both, I'll technically be certified in Massachusetts. Now for Grad-school, It would be easy, and more economical to go to somewhere close to home in Mass and commute. (well it's arguable if it would be cheap if I went to UMass-Boston, as I'd have to live in Boston). What I would really love to do is get out of this god-forsaken town I live in though and go out on my own, and go to Grad school somewhere else (I have friends in California and New Mexico) The problem with going to a school in either San Diego or Albuquerque is that A. I'd probably have to start a semester later, to allow time to get a place, get a job, and all the advising/meetings required before I would get admitted to UNM or UCSD B. I'd be paying a heck of a lot more for a similar education, just a different certification. But does the experience of actually being independent for the first "real" time and living in a new place make up for the thousands of dollars more a semester I would be paying?
When the "professionals" show up let me know. Now we're some progress around here. You guys are learning. Now what we need to tackle the No Sick Day Left Behind legacy program that is helping to further bankrupt tax payers. Do what UCLACarlos says to do in this situation.............."Go to the library. Ask a reference librarian to help you find scholarly studies " We're spending way to much on education in this country compared to what we are receiving in return. We have to change. We all need to buy into this concept. I don't have all the answers but dialogue is the best way to start reversing this continual downward spiral of education.
We're here. You have misread and/or misapplied -- big surprise -- the text that was highlighted in my post. So you're like those Eurosnobs w/ "Favorite teams: Chelsea, Arsenal, ManU, Barca, Real Madrid, Atletico Madrid, Inter Milan, AC Milan" who come onto BS and are so kind to inform us heathens that the USMNT and MLS aren't as good as the top nations and leagues. Like cops do? Like virtually any civil servant? Why limit your critique to the public sector/taxpayers? What about shareholders and the lost productivity b/c workers have the audacity to get sick. Has it occurred to you that maybe the days get carried over IN COUNTLESS INDUSTRIES b/c human beings get sick and it's a way of protecting the worker and the overall economy? If you're such an expert on pedagogy, perhaps you could model this behavior for him. You're talking out of your ass. YOU MADE THE ASSERTION. He didn't. You're intellectually lazy and are asking somebody else to do your homework. Show us the proof. He's just asking for you to back yourself up.
Since you're the one who cited it, the burden of proof is on you. That's how citation works, both in education and in professional fields. A lawyer who said to opposing counsel "there's a precedent for this, but I can't be bothered to look it up - you do it" would quickly find themselves in contempt of court.
No not the teacher "professionals", the textual analysis professionals. When they get here, let me know. Sadly, these days you simply cannot assume they are one in the same. Maybe in other countries, but not here. God I hate guys like that. They normally have some sort of upper class, or even a faux (faux means 'false' in french for those of you are currently stuck in the US school system) English accent. The USA Rugby Eagles and New England Revolution are two of my favorite teams. I was at a USA v England game in Ontario awhile back, I drove up from RI and there were hundreds of these dismissive types. To be frank, they remind me of educators who believe their own line of BS. They have to sigh before any response to a question, just really crummy people, sadly academia is full of them. Well thanks for recognizing I am not focusing solely upon teachers. All public sector employees need a good shake up, so we agree upon that. The thing about your argument is it falls apart, you see, shareholders have a response, they can sell, they can even short the stock, or they can simply vote the bums out. We are stuck with the teachers unions. Expand on this please. We protect the overall economy with unlimited sicks for the public sector because.................(please finish your thoughts). Never claimed to be an expert on pedagogy. However I can point to the US education system and ascertain that we are spending more on education than most and getting the least dollar for dollar across the board. We are falling behind the other developed nations, its embarrasing and it needs to stop. We are doing a great disservice to the children by telling them they are getting the best education and they will succeed simply because they are American. Its a ponzi scheme and it will end.
Carlos, just give it up. This guy either has an irrational hatred of teachers that nothing will dissuade him from, or is trolling. And I'm still waiting for that source.
I would genuinely hope thats not the case minor threat. I could easily turn it around and say you have an irrational fear of change and nothing will dissuade you from changing. I'm not a troll either. If you go back to the start this was posted awhile ago, Carlos said he didn't want to discuss it and I went away, then others jumped in weeks later. We have to change. The USA deserves the best education system in the world. I think one of the big components of the change that is needed is to reward with better pay great teachers, dump this middle management of admins, librarians (who "design" studies), school boards and teachers unions. To put it in laymans terms there are too many chiefs and not enough indians.
minorthreat,what's the point of a sources to prove a useless comparison? That Northern European (and Quebec) countries are scoring better as English as a second language than US kids. Why exactly is that surprising? Teaching a language as a second language is very different from the teaching the language your students have grown up with. The appropriate comparison to US ESL teaching would be the French educational system and how it teaches French as a second language to Arab immigrants and their children.