The [R] Rule

two examples, one follows what you say, one doesn't



yanks abroad... never a need for an r... the threads are set up, they are all for the game... if you wind up there and read the thread... it's your own stupid fault... and even that, i don't understand... if you are in there for the YA guys, i have a hard time imagining the result will effect your interest in the game


us men forums (i.e. games, injuries, etc.)... never, ever, ever go in there (or probably any forum with any sort of relation to the usmnt) and expect to see a thread not telling you what happened... and no one should even be expected to stand up to that

so again, no need for an r, but using the r in forums discussing the usmnt is absolutely retarded and hinders discussion



and the popularity of soccer in this country is dependent upon the national team... the farther they go, the more we get... the dorkier we are on here, the more that get turned away

let it fly, the game is done, it's open, it's available

if you didn't watch it the first time, it's your own fault, and you shouldn't be expected to have 7 billion other people make sure they don't inform you of the result before you have the chance to watch it in the comfort of your own home at your leisure... cause it's old newsand therefore fair game

 

I'll join the outvoted too. But then I think football is to be seen at the ground, not on the TV.

Besides, with all the mentioned should X go after todays result posts do kind of give it away. People should be able to talk freely about what is/has been going on.

 

A few comments/questions:

1) I think the idea of having different rules in different forums is an interesting one. I do wonder the scalability of this for busy forums. Will users become confused when they try to expand their interests into a new forum and find themselves getting in trouble. Also, we don't have user cards/bans that are forums specific - only site wide.

2) Everyone is speaking up about all the people that don't want to see results, but what about the desire of people that actually come to a soccer site and are looking to see scores, standings and results? It doesn't surprise me that the results of this poll are the way they are. Would they be different if the question was: "would you like BigSoccer to prominently publish scores and results". No one is coming to BigSoccer today and saying "I need to have scores" but perhaps the site would be better and more comprehensive if users did not have to go to lots of different places to easily get their ALL their soccer info.

3) To be totally honest, it just seems silly for a soccer website to not quickly and easily provide the most important and pertinent information about the sport on a timely basis.

I don't think this is about the difficulty of policing the [R] rule, but rather the inherent poor quality and usability of the site because of this policy. We are purposely taxing our moderators, policing our users and making relevant information hard to find all so that the users that record games can come to a website on soccer without finding out about the soccer games they have recorded. Seriously, if this is a problem, perhaps these folks should be watching their recorded games instead of surfing soccer sites with the hopes of not spoling the game. We shouldn't do this disservice to all the people that want to easily see all the scores and results quickly and easily.

This all being said, I do think there are ways in which we can bring in such information that keeps it ~relatively~ easy to avoid. This might be a good way to start.

 

A quick aside about your quick aside -

I assure you we do have forum specific bans here.

 

Whether you decide to keep it or not, I know that many mods including myself will keep it as a unofficial forum policy. On the Arsenal board it is adhered to and everyone likes it. That won't change whether or not official policy changes. I agree with Dark Knight, it is something that stands us out from the rest.

Keep it.

 

1) Whether or not it's official policy we all know that certain forums have different rules depending on the mods. Chelsea and Liverpool are stricter than say Arsenal. It's fact. Oh, we do have forum specific bans and have always done!!!
2) On most boards there are match threads. If you don't want to know the score, you don't look at it. It's easy. I don't let and results go in titles in the Arsenal forum and I don't allow other game results in match threads. On the Arsenal forum, it's been fine.

Many people come here whilst at work and especially for the UK games, they are on in your afternoon/lunchtimes. Therefore it's important as many people tape games to watch when they get home but still want to interact on the message board without knowing the results.

 

I haven't figured out whether it's just BigSoccer culture specifically, or soccer fans in general that get really militant about spoilers.

Most sports fans want to see scores from other games - because they're not going to watch them. They want to know where their team is in the standings, etc...

But for some reason, broadcasters get lambasted here for giving results of other games in progress (and even ones played earlier). I think the criticism is fair when a channel gives away the result of a game they're about to broadcast on delay, but folks were going apeshit here on the last day the EPL season and the LIVE game kept updating the relegation scenarios. I think some folks need to get a grip. espn2 blowing the LA/SJ score on the bottom line during the unending NFL Draft is a mistake. Fox/Sky cutting to the race to the wire amongst three games is just good news/sports coverage.

I don't know what the answer is. I used to really be a big fan of [R], but then I was a moderator, and I really began to think of it as unmanageable. As a user, I have no problem with either system, but I'd like to see more punitive action against repeat offenders - if the [R] is retained.

If you, as a business, think you can expand your business by offering scores, standings, headlines with results in the most prominent and easy to reach manner, then I say go for it. The fact is, most users here likely don't really care, and they'll adapt.

As you should fully understand by now, any change to the way things are will prompt a few angry customer service threads with a few members demanding refunds and vowing never to return. You'll never get 100% customer satisfaction, no matter what you decide.

Not knowing your financials, nor what you're considering for the future, I'd recommend that you really analyze realistically what kind of gains you can make - or not make, then make a decision based on business concerns. (And yes, current customer sentiment should be part of the equation, but not a veto).

 

That's it exactly. During the last world cup, for instance, it was great to be able to talk about the earlier games I'd seen that morning, while keeping myself in the dark about the later match(es), which I would be taping to watch after work. The "R" is a great feature, and without it, I would've probably avoided bigsoccer for good stretches of times in 2002.

If BS decides it wants to be a news board as well as a discussion site, that's their call. It just means I won't be visiting here during the afternoons. If they make the business decision and decide that I would be among the minority, that's obviously their call.

 

What's the big deal over results being used in a title?

I mean we already use the result tags in our posts. ([result] [/result])

I say can it because you put too many restrictions on us as it is. Time to be a little leinient on the results.

 

In my experience it's a soccer fan thing, limited to American soccer fans.

It's really weird. I've never seen it in any other sport, and I've never seen it in any other country.

You old curmudgeon you.

 

Why, thank you.

 

Knave said it first, in his encyclopedic post a couple of pages ago.



Being a curmudgeon is fun.

 

What about those people? I think you’re right: they don’t come to BigSoccer looking for scores. BigSoccer isn’t the place to get that information, it’s the place to talk about soccer. BigSoccer is the internet equivalent of the local soccer bar, the internet equivalent of the (if it existed) soccer-only newspaper sports page. It's the best and the biggest soccer discussion board on the internet. That’s what BigSoccer does well and people come here for that reason.

I understand this point that maybe BigSoccer would be more comprehensive if it offered news. But it’s very hard for me to imagine BigSoccer ever really competing with the variety of major and minor soccer news websites on the internet. Why is that? The bottom line is it’s simply not possible to be comprehensive. Think about how many websites you’d need to read just to keep up with MLS. A BigSoccer news service could never truly compete with all those outlets. Not only is there too much information, but many of those website offer proprietary material. They have their own reporters and can offer unique coverage you can’t get anywhere else. Is BigSoccer gonna get into that game? For some reason I get the impression your sights are lower than that.

Maybe BigSoccer could become another one of the many, many websites providing soccer news, but I’m just not sure how much you could really expect to gain from that. I don’t know how ambitious you guys are, but it seems a very big step to me to try to offer serious soccer news coverage that could hope to compete with everything that’s already out there currently.

And keep in mind, right now – server gremlins aside – BigSoccer operates as a premier website. Nobody can really compete with this place when it comes to soccer discussion. Can you really offer news here without it looking like the BigSoccer discussion board’s red-headed step-child?

I also wonder if there isn’t a basic misunderstanding here. In a certain sense BigSoccer already is the place where, as JonnyQuest put it, people come to get “ALL their soccer info.” But if what I said above about the variety of news sources is true then you have to ask what that really means.

Soccer fans do want all the info they can get. They want every shred of news possible. There are two possible responses to that desire:

1) Some soccer fans are highly promiscuous when searching for soccer news on the internet. They’re not looking for a single, ultimate comprehensive source. They’re looking to gather information from everywhere they can. So they read soccer news from all over the place. That's one way to get comprehensive information.

2) Other soccer fans hang out at a place like BigSoccer because one of the great things about BigSoccer is it acts like sieve for all those sources. All the good information will eventually come up in one discussion thread or another. So this place is already a shortcut to all the news. That means BigSoccer may already be the most comprehensive soccer news site on the internet. Perhaps the delivery of that news isn't as efficient as we'd all like it to be, but - in truth - it probably is delivered as efficiently as it can be.

Two things: 1) What might be silly on a soccer news website might not be silly on a soccer discussion website. I differentiate between those things. 2) Come on. We’re really just talking about results and scores here. No other information is held back in any way here. Maybe it’d be easier if I could just click a menu on BigSoccer and get the scores from this or that league. On the other hand, it doesn’t seem to me that the addition of a scoreboard would add much to the BigSoccer experience. In fact, I'd probably still go to MLSNet or Livescore etc.

BigSoccer puts a couple of clicks between you and the score, but other than that I don’t see how BigSoccer is making any relevant information hard to find. If anything, as I said before, the BigSoccer “sieve” makes information relatively easy to find.

Honestly, as this discussion has developed I see less and less of a big deal here. So, fine, it’s hard to get the scores. Fine. Make a scoreboard. Put a link up somewhere on the boards. But, see, that – to me – sounds kind of lame. So it's harder and harder for me to see what the big deal is. As long as the boards are largely segregated from these additions I don't why the [R] rule should even be an issue here.

The main thing is to have the boards spoiler free because people come here all day long for all kinds of reasons. And sometimes during that time they're taping a game to watch that night. But they should still be able to come here to shoot-the-shit (one of my favorite expressions). Keep in mind this is a community (and that community often extends off-line). So many people aren't coming here only for soccer. They're coming here to hang out (virtually at least) with their friends. The [R] rule facilitates that and BigSoccer forgets that at its peril.

All that said …

While it’s hard for me to imagine BigSoccer really competing as a comprehensive source for soccer news with existing soccer news websites, it does seem to me that BigSoccer is well positioned to be the best source of soccer opinion and analysis on the internet. In a certain sense BigSoccer already competes with all the soccer columnists. There are posters here who are smarter, more interesting and better writers than most any soccer columnist on the internet. Want to expand BigSoccer and add more features to this website? Why not become a real platform for those guys?

Back when it first started I thought the Soccer Journal might become that. But for some reason it never really took off that way. Still, people have done interesting things there. In fact, just recently comme’s been posting a history of the World Cup there. And in the past we’ve posted the All-American XI there. Now that I think about it, I actually think Ian Plenderleith once posted some things there.

But I have to tell you, as someone who’s been involved in posting there, I think it’s a really lousy platform. Putting those things into a thread, to me, degrades the work – it makes it into a mere “post.” And then a day goes by, the news threads take over the top spot, and nobody gives a damn about what you wrote anymore.

I’m hopeful that we can start up the AAXI again this year, but I’m also wondering if we shouldn’t move it to a blog where it’ll have a different kind of editorial context. I have started posting to a blog in recent months. It's quite a different medium than BigSoccer. I can write things there that I could never write here. It's just a totally different style.

There are guys at BigSoccer who write really good, interesting things. Those are resources that are already here. If I were looking to add more to the BigSoccer experience I’d be trying to figure out how to get those guys to provide material that can compete with the rest of the soccer editorial and opinion writings on the internet. And then I'd figure out a way to feature them prominently on the website.

 

...and not be some website where a bunch of people look out for a couple of dorks that don't want to ruin their lives by catching a score

....


the game has been played, if you really wanted to see it, you would have... it's your fault and don't take it out on others



every thread should be able to have the score, there should be threads titled "bocanegra scores winner in stoppage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"


let people get excited, don't hinder them, let new people get into it... don't rail because some people are huge ... dorks


there are tickers on most every game out there, be it live or taped



get real

(admin warning user on language and personal attack)

 

can we please change the site name to:

bigsoccer [r]: share the passion, but only after everyone has seen the game... please don't tell anyone about the game until all the secret ballets are in... or you will be on double secret probation

 

I agree with Knave. Although long-winded, he makes a point. This is a community where people come to discuss, not necessarily where they come for news. Like he said, even if BS put scores on the site, I'd most likely still get them from someplace else. Kind of like the bots - I can read the stories here if I want, but I don't. I read the same stories through my own RSS feed, which is much more friendly to use.

Speaking of the bots - their lack of success, and sometimes utter hatred generated by the users, should be a clue about what people want and don't want. Those threads never get read, and you should check the bot's negative rep log from time to time.

 

Good God, please get rid of the stupid [R] Rule just so Knave will shut the hell up.

 

huss, who the hell did i personally attack?

it's a general notion not directed towards anyone


if someone thinks it's directed towards them, just tell them they have their diapers in a bunch


as for saying bullshit to knave... that's not a personal attack, that's saying what he said was wrong... which is not an attack on him, just saying what he said is wrong, last i knew that was perfectly acceptable because i'm not calling him anything

i haven't a clue why you would need to edit that out... and what's wrong with saying keeping the [r] is all about dorkiness, geekdom, unacceptance and wanting to stay in a niche?

remember that this is a message board

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind getting rid of the [R] rule. If you don't want to know about the game, don't come to a soccer website.

However, I would maybe use it as a courtisey (like others have said) but if people don't use it then no big loss.

 

Damn. You're right. It IS my fault that I have a job, and am occasionally at work when some games are being played. And I take the rap for learning how to program a VCR, too, so I could watch the game at home after work, too. And World War II: I confess: I talked Neville Chamberlain into adopting the policy of appeasement.

People act like the "R" rule prevents them from talking about soccer. All it does is prevents someone from writing a thread title with a result in it. That's it. How that can possibly restrict someone's fun in talking about a match is hard for me to imagine. It has nothing to do with what can be said IN ACTUAL THREADS, just in thread titles.

 

Somewhere in another thread within the last week or so (I think it might've been in one of the Norway threads) I made an analogy like the following.

A lot of my friends and acquaintances back in the '80s who were into "alternative" music (like I was). As far as some these fans of alternative music were concerned, bands that got popular were sellouts, regardless of whether or not the music changed. They wanted the music to remain in a niche, so that only "cool" people would know about it.

IMO, there are a lot of American soccer fans who have the same attitude. They really want soccer to remain unpopular in the USA. That way they can show off how cool they are. These are the people who think the [R] Rule makes sense.