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Discussion in 'Germany' started by Schwalker, Jun 1, 2008.
Not with the U-23 rules they won't......
Well, I have this sneaky feeling that there is a widening gap between the U-23 teams and the minor clubs, not so much when it comes to financial strength but in ability to attract young talented players, players that look at a spell in a U-23 team as an opportunity to impress a big club.
And as have been mentioned in this thread the bigger clubs have a way of making things easy for their second teams...They already got good facilities, competent coaches, medical staff etc etc.
And the other clubs still get experienced veterans. Six in one half a dozen in the other. Take a look at the last Regionalliga season.
Regionalliga Nord, just one reserve team in top ten and three in the top fifteen.
Regionalliga Sud, two reserve teams in the top ten and three in the top fifteen.
I don't see where they had so much of an advantage.....
All those clubs that finished above the reserve sides won't play in the RL anymore, of course. And the non-reserve sides in the RL will only get one third of the TV money RL sides got this year from now on. Oh, and finally: it has never been the clubs eyeing promotion to the 2. Bundesliga who were hit hardest by reserve sides. For those, they are an annoyance, sure. But it's often ignored that they also play a role in the relegation battle, and take up spots in the league in the first place (keeping real teams out of the league).
The new RL will be closer to the current Oberliga. While full-time teams in the current RL could still compete well with reserves most of the time, many teams in the new RL will likely be semi-pro.
Of course the new RL is going to be closer to the current Oberliga. It is pretty much the same division with the "Regionalliga" name.
I believe what they are hoping is that with the future changes brought on with promotion/relegation, it will boost the standard of play as it has with the 2. Liga over the years......
Surely, it can be expected.
In the new 3rd league (3.league) only the best teams of the old 3rd divisions
play and at 4th league, the worst teams of old 3rd league play against the
best teams of the old 4th league.
Who would watch it?
From this year's crowds stats...
Third tier normal clubs, average 4,988
Third tier B teams, average 1,211
Fourth tier normal clubs, average 857
Fourth tier B teams, average 359
If the fans of the clubs involved don't have any interest in watching their reserve teams play, it's a bit of a stretch to suggest the rest of the country would become wrapped up in an essentially meaningless competition between just the reserves.
It has been suggested by a couple of overseas managers in England that the reserve teams of premiership clubs should be allowed to play in the football league - comments that weren't well received, it has to be said and weren't remotely given consideration or support.
However, it is accepted here that the reserve league is of a very poor standard and does little to prepare developing players for first team football, which is why so many reserve players are loaned out to lower division clubs (which further weakens the reserve league) or are used in cup matches in place of regular starters.
First thing. Germany isn't England.
Second thing, I never said the "entire country" would get caught up in it.
Third thing, what makes you think the Regionalligas have a huge following?
Fourth thing, the Bundesliga rivalries, even at the "B" level would draw fans if they are played at a time that would allow fans to see both games.
Last but not least, agree that a reserve league would reduce the level of preparation. But I'm for almost anything that will get the fans of the smaller independent clubs to stop bitching all the time.........
then it wouldn't ever be that popular
compared to bundesliga reserve teams, they do.
correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't they played on saturday afternoons when the home team is away? What exactly makes these dreadfully supported sides so difficult to attend?
Yes, because it's those smaller clubs that are the problem, isn't it?
Dude, a few of the BL reserve teams play with them. The rest are in lower divisions.
What exactly are you referring to??
Not all the time, but they do try to do that as much as possible. However, when you have a club like say, BVB, where most of the fans follow the "A" team on the road, then no, you won't get great attendance for the reserve team matches when they are played at the same time the "A" team plays away.
Smartass. Right on.
No, the smaller clubs aren't "the problem", but some could stop bitching 24/7.
No solution is good enough for them. THAT'S THE FREAKIN' PROBLEM!
Third tier normal clubs, average 4,988
Third tier B teams, average 1,211
Fourth tier normal clubs, average 857
Fourth tier B teams, average 359
Reserve teams draw considerably less than the real teams in the same division as them. There isn't really anything to suggest a reserve league would be more popular than the lower divisions. The crowd figures really speak for themselves.
Borussia Dortmund get 75,000 at home games. There's no way that "most" of the fans travel to away games. They get 1685 at their reserve games. What sort of crowds do you think these teams get?
Their complaint here seems to be about reserve teams playing in their league without the same budget constraints they have to adhere to. I think reserve teams not being in the league would be good enough for them.
Add in the fact that they are playing the reserve teams of other BL clubs and I'll bet those numbers climb.
What the fans of the "A" team don't care about is the Regionalliga.
Granted. I chose the wrong word with "most." However, we rarely got 75,000 this past season. As far as I know, we averaged just over 72,000. And how many of them do you think are hardcore fans??
I'll tell you. Not quite half of them. But again, add the name "Reserve Bundesliga" and those crowds will go up. Not severely, but I'll bet if the DFL worked the scheduling right, they would outdraw many of the Regionalliga clubs.
Not all of them, but many of them.
Maybe it doesn't work in England, but I don't care what you say, I am convinced a "Reserve Bundesliga" with good scheduling would raise the crowd number in Germany.
The reserve teams have to adhere to the U-23 policy. That ensures they always have to deal with turnover.
None of them are stocking up on "stars" and playing down there.
But if you listen to the fans of the small clubs, that's exactly what you'd think is going on.
Sure, they would rather there be no reserve teams there. But as you said before, a reserve team Bundesliga wouldn't do much to advance the abilities of the young guys playing there.
It's really six in one, half a dozen in the other. No one will be fully satisfied. The league would have to put something at stake in the reserve Bundesliga because the big clubs would complain that their clubs no longer have the opportunity to make extra money through their clubs qualifying for the 3rd Bundesliga.
But if the DFB lets them back in the German Cup as an incentive to go to the reserve Bundesliga, the smaller clubs will bitch again.
It's a vicious circle. I think they've come as close to the "perfect" solution as they are going to get.
I'd say to the fans of the smaller clubs, don't just bitch, push the management of your clubs to do the best they can with what they have.
Many aren't doing that. They just complain about the bigger clubs and their fans buy the shit.
Look at FSV Frankfurt. Being in the same area with Eintracht, Mainz and Offenbach hasn't stopped them from finally getting their s#it together.......
i don't see the big deal there will be only 21 reserve teams in the three regional leagues. most of the teams like Hansa II, Cottbus II, Hannover II, and more don't really have the chance to get into the third league. The first team is a priority. The only losers are once again the eastern teams. That is the only graveyard. Other than that, those traditional clubs that are in the oberliga owe it to themselves. The solution these days is money, not to eliminate the reserve teams or give small clubs more "chances". The quality will be better, and that's good for football.
As footyfan said, this stuff actually gets tiresome after some time. And of course it's not new that Bundesliga fans don't see "what the big deal is", really no surprise.
Just two things: games between Bundesliga reserves usually get way less spectators then any other Regionalliga game, sometimes in the low hundreds. The vast majority of their attendance figure comes from travelling fans from real clubs (e.g. Wolfsburg II - without ca. 15000 supporters from Braunschweig in one game their attendance figures would look slightly worse etc.)
And: only 21 (although it isn't completely sure yet, depending on licenses the number could rise)? That's almost the freaking half of all teams!!! Of course a Werder fam wouldn't know about what a league like this would be like, but still.
And finally... reserves sides could never field the teams they do if they weren't reserves. Bring up U-23 rules all you want, but they take away spots in the league. Again, it's not the big amateur clubs that suffer most, but smaller ones. If Holstein Kiel gets relegated, but BVB II not this may seem insignificant to some, but still.
This is a topic where middle ground will ever be found. We can go on and on without anything new ever being said.
No need to do it. Each side has their own opinion and from what I can see each side's opinion has its own merits and detractions.
Let's just see what happens.
A couple of notes: There is nothing that would suggest that reserve sides could get decent attendances in any form. Attendances for reserve sides in Germany are low in the regular league system, attendances for reserve sides in the English reserve league are even lower... I'm not sure how it looks elsewhere, but simply stating "but Germany is different, you just need to create a reserve league and the fans would suddenly come in thousands" based on nothing but speculation is a bit thin for me. I really don't see that.
I also still fail to see what's so different from before. I mean, the league pyramid obviously changed a bit, but why is the reserve-side-problem worse now than it was before? or any different at all? I mean, the teams in the new 3. Liga are obviously in a better situation than before in the Regionalliga, and in the Regionalliga it gets a bit worse (but I doubt it will be worse in the new Regionalliga than it was in the former 4th division). of course, 21 of 54 teams being reserve sides is a lot and 1/3 reserve sides will probably be bad for attendances, but in eg the Oberliga Nordrhein, whe already had 7 of 18 teams being reserve sides last season, the situation is not that extraordinary. Also, the advantages for reserve sides are not new, but neither the Regionalligen nor the Oberligen were really dominated by reserve sides (on the pitch, not in numbers), why should that change?
double post, pls delete
What do you mean by "before"? If you don't see why it's different now than it was in, let's say, 1994 or even 1998 I see no point in explaining it again as this is as self-evident as it gets. In 1998 7 out of 72 Regionalliga teams were reserve sides, the financial set-up of the lower leagues was much different etc. If by before you mean the last few years... well, I think a reform should make things better. The current set-up sucked already, that's why Regionalliga clubs were pushing for a reform.
If the new 3. Liga was a good thing still remains to be seen. I was all in favor for it in theory, but I will wait with my final judgement for at least two or three years. Especially the new TV contract will be important - and how much clubs will get out of it.
I don't really want to go through this again, but: in all but three Oberligas half or more of the qualified teams for the Regionalliga were reserve sides (you mentioned OL Nordrhein... the first 3 spots were talen up by reserves, which I would call quite dominanting). Btw, as it stands right now 22 reserve sides will be in, Unterhaching II is qualified through the backdoor as Bayreuth didn't get a license. And again: that are 22 spots that should be taken up by actual clubs.
In YOUR OPINION they "should be......"
If it's good enough for the world's religious leaders, not using "in my opinion" is good enough for me as well .
"Folgende 54 Mannschaften werden in der Saison 2008/09 in der Regionalliga spielen (die Staffeleinteilung erfolgt seitens des DFB am 4. Juli 2008):"
Aus der Regionalliga Nord:
VfL Wolfsburg II
Hamburger SV II
SV Babelsberg 03
Energie Cottbus II
Borussia Dortmund II
1. FC Magdeburg
Aus der Regionalliga Süd:
KSV Hessen Kassel
Karlsruher SC II
TSV 1860 München II
SSV Reutlingen 05
Aus der Oberliga Nord:
Hannover 96 II
Aus den Oberligen des NOFV:
Hertha BSC II
Hansa Rostock II
FC Sachsen Leipzig
Aus der Oberliga Nordrhein:
Bayer 04 Leverkusen II
Borussia Mönchengladbach II
1. FC Köln II
1. FC Kleve
Aus der Oberliga Westfalen:
FC Schalke 04 II
VfL Bochum II
Aus der Oberliga Hessen:
SV Darmstadt 98
SV Wehen Wiesbaden II
Eintracht Frankfurt II
Aus der Oberliga Bayern:
SpVgg Greuther Fürth II
1. FC Nürnberg II
1. FC Eintracht Bamberg
SpVgg Unterhaching II
Aus der Oberliga Südwest:
1. FSV Mainz 05 II
1. FC Kaiserslautern II
Aus der Oberliga Baden-Württemberg:
SC Freiburg II
SSV Ulm 1846
SV Waldhof Mannheim
1. FC Heidenheim 1846
good to see both Chemies qualify
For my money the whole issue of "too many IIs" versus "not enough traditional clubs" is a double-edged sword:
If the II teams do not get competitive football at a high enough level they will not be able to get, retain and build a first team in the upper divisions.
However, if they (the II teams) take so many places in the new 3rd league (and RLs) they do so at the expense of other, usually smaller, clubs.
Unfortunately, I think the current set-up is the best for German footy in that it makes the existing teams stronger and allows them to build from their current base. However, it does seem to disadvantage the smaller clubs in lesser markets. Let's face it, the days of smaller clubs rising through the ranks on their own is nearly over. Even clubs like 1860 face financial challenges so it is only to be expected that lesser clubs like Saarbruecken will too. I fear we might see more club consolidation to survive in order to remain competitive. Given this is the natural progression of things in the business world it only stands to reason that this will happen in the football world.
It might be a bit early to call any long-lasting effects of the new set-up on German football, but we can look at the current situation:
3. Liga: VFB2 and Bayern2 are midtable, Werder2 in the relegation zone
RL Nord:6 U23 teams, none of them is in the fight for the top spots, 2 are in serious danger of getting relegated, 3 more are in the lower midfield
RL West: 8 U23 teams, Köln2 tops the table, 2 more are within striking distance (together with 2 regular teams), 2 are just above the relegation zone
RL Süd: 8 U23 teams, Eintracht2 tops the table, Freiburg2 and Unterhaching2 are the bottom 2
Oberligas: Currently, no 2nd team is in a position to get promoted, however Pauli2, Hoffenheim2 and several 2nd teams in the NRW Liga are involved in the fight for promotion, I guess in the end one or 2 will make it.
Prediction for next year:
3. Liga: 4 2nd teams (-1 relegated from, +2 promoted to)
RL Nord: 5 2nd teams (-2 relegated from, +1 relegated to)
RL West: 7 2nd teams (-1 promoted from)
RL Süd: 5 2nd teams (-1 promoted from, -2 relegated from)
Obviously, it's a bit early to say anything for certain, but at least for now it looks like the number of 2nd teams in the RL will be less dramatic next year than it is now. It also doesn't look like the other RL clubs aren't competitive anymore, though obviously this is just a short-term observation, in particular I have no idea how the clubs are doing financially.