The most complete player of all-time?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by y.o.n.k.o, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I've finished watching and more and more as the game wore on he seemed to play as we would describe a 'false 9' playing tbh. But I guess he was lined up as support striker (scoring or roaming inside forward in WM terms?) but without the striker there alongside him. When they were leading the game, perhaps it was a tactic to have him come deeper even.
     
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  2. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    No I do not think so ...

    There were two games vs Benfica in 1966 and Best was playing as LFW and then RFW - never a center FW.

    The way Best playing with a free role just like Messi (Barca 06-09) or CR7 at Real 10-13
    Started as outside RIght or Left ... but surge up and enter the box to score ...

    The "center" was often reserved for Herd (or Kidd) , Denis Law or Bobby Charlton ...(moving up)

    ONLY in MLS he was playing more like a trescartista behind striker ...or CAM
     
  3. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England



    Do you mean when Best was playing in the NASL rather than the MLS here, mate?
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    In the Liverpool vs Man Utd game from 1969 (on the video Puck provided higher on the page) James.

    He did sometimes play wearing 8 or 10 for Man Utd though I know from footage (I think Wikipedia also mentions it although I know it's not a 100% trustworthy source). If he did then he'd be playing like a central (support?) forward or maybe like a trequarista or in English terms of the day a roaming inside forward perhaps. Plus as Roy said, he did play in midfield in a 4-3-3.

    But of course, generally you are right that he played as right winger or left winger for a lot of his career and is famous as a winger. Either in a WM-hybrid, 4-2-4 or 4-3-3 I think he played as winger but sometimes he did seem to have played more centrally as far as I can understand - honestly.

    You are right as well that he played freely as a winger of course, and dribbled infield a lot (although also stuck to his role to some extent even though the 4-4-2 wasn't really invented as such then).
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
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  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    This is with #10 (saw a picture in a book with a description below so...)
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    And I could remember this one too:


    Look at 1:10. He has #7 but is put down in midfield. With Kidd possessing #10 (who regularly looked like a #9 IMO but ofc that was Charlton his trademark shirt).
     
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  8. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Sorry to correct you: he never wore #10 at ManU (I never recalled)
    1- Best wore #11, #7 most the time (both ManU and Ireland) ,
    2- He wore # 8 ( some games between seasons to FORCE him remember he was playing as an INSIDE RIGHT in those games - not winger) - hence he did play as CAM if we like to call it - when ManU playing W-M (3 2 3 2 , not 4 2 4).

    WHY he had to change his shirt number? Best was a talented player with free-as-bird kinda mindset (a la Garrincha style) so hard for the coach to control ....

    3- He wore #9 (1 GAME in 66 FA cup when Charlton was injured) -
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    I am pretty sure he wore #7 in from 66 to 68 EC ... I watched them ....
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    :thumbsdown::thumbsdown::thumbsdown:
     
  10. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Oufff sorry ... what I meant was ...

    by WIKI saying in 1972:
    when Best was threaten to leave ManU and he was handling number #10 in the last half season (!) I did NOT watch Best in those end of life ... so MAYBE so ...he did
     
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  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, he is playing up with Kidd in that game (mostly advanced rather than as AM it seems to me). Burns and Aston are the wingers I think, wheras against Liverpool in 1969 (in the video you found) Morgan and Aston played as wingers.

    I remember in the poll from 1970 you found that Best was in the second All-Time XI as number 10 actually (maybe he was having a spell in that role at the time, but I guess most of his votes were as winger but they put him in the 2nd team due to number of votes).

    Not to say James is wrong generally though - Best for Man Utd was very often a winger of course. And in those Benfica games he didn't play as central forward or like a trequarista or AM. It's just that he didn't only ever play as winger for United.
     
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  12. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    In his last years with NASL, at least his shirt number was well recorded =

    [​IMG]

    TeamLeague Year SHIRT Number
    Los Angeles AztecsNASL76 11
    Los Angeles AztecsNASL77 11
    Los Angeles AztecsNASL78 11
    Ft. Lauderdale StrikersNASL 7
    Ft. Lauderdale StrikersNASL 7
    San Jose EarthquakesNASL80 11
    San Jose Earthquakes IndoorNASL80-81 11
    San Jose EarthquakesNASL81 11
    San Jose Earthquakes IndoorNASL81-82 11
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Strangely at the start he does seem to be lined-up as right winger in that one (or maybe he just drifted wide or is right hand side of the 3 in midfield). Possibly the captions were sometimes wrong, although it seems after the 1966 World Cup they stopped showing the teams by default in WM or Classic formation (in the 65-66 Tottenham vs Man Utd game they show the line-ups like that still even though it's not really how they lined up). I'll maybe watch all of that later anyway.

    If Law is up front then Best would be winger I guess. If Law (or Kidd) played more from the right of the attack maybe not (that would be similar to how Roy described Herd or someone playing from the right, with Best deeper as I think seems to have been the case vs Benfica away in 1966).

    Anyway, good to know you did watch some games of Man Utd (at the time?) James.
     
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  14. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Yes I was so young (at time) but thanks to my uncle and my big bro they were Football Maniacs ... and they kinda dragged me into that ,..

    I remember i was so confused with them, as they always argued about : Cruijff vs Pele at time as who was the best all time ... Of course I was watching and (at time 70's) I was kinda agree with my big bro that Cruijjf was better (since I only watched Cruijjf playing live at time but no so much of Pele - until later years of research)
     
  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I do remember you saying that Cruijff was your first idol yeah - I suppose you would be very young then in the 60's when you got the chance to watch Best at Man Utd.
     
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  16. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #566 JamesBH11, Dec 18, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2013
    Yeah I was like 7-10 years old boy when I first watched Best at ManU in EC 66-68

    Here is the clear starting XI ManU vs Benfica 1966 (first leg game) with shirt number -
    Best wore #7, D Law #8, Bobby Charlton #9, Herd #10 and Connelly #11 as the FIVE ATTACKERS of W-M formation played by ManU at time

    -------------Herd(10) --------D Law(8) -----------
    Connelly(11)-------BCharlton(9)------- GBest(7)
    ---------------B Stilles (6)--------------------------
    -----------------------------Crerand(4)------------
    ---- Dune(2) ----Foulke(5) -------- Cantwell(3) --
    -----------------------Gregg (1)----------------------


    http://www.mufcinfo.com/manupag/match_data/match_sql.php?my_match_date=1966-02-02
     
  17. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England




    In the beginning of the video both England & Scotland are shown as lining-up in a 4-3-3 formation. Some good information about how shirt numbers might be applied to that formation in that era is given by the presenter...
     
  18. RoyOfTheRovers

    Jul 24, 2009
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England



    Charlton was wearing the No.9 because he was still thought of as a "deep-lying CENTRE-FORWARD" even though United's XI was listed as lining up in a 4-3-3. Everton's 4-3-3 numbering scheme was more typical of the day: as shown by Joe Royle wearing the No.9 as a "card-carrying" centre-forward and Alan Ball wearring the No.8 as the "all-action"-type nominally in the centre of Everton's midfield trio...
     
  19. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #569 JamesBH11, Dec 20, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2013
    NOT really,
    In 4 3 3 if Bobby Charlton was "regarding as deep lying CF" he MUST be positioned like Cruijff as the most advanced man ... For example:

    ------ (11) ----- (9) ----- (7) ------
    ---------(10) --- (6) ---(8)- -------

    But instead, most of the time Bobby Charlton was in MF (like #6) in above , behind 2,3 players ... so it CAN NOT be 4 3 3 but more like 3 2 2 3 or 3 2 5 ....

    But from 68 -72 ManU played a clear 4 3 3 and somehow Bobby Charlton still wearing his famous #9 in middle park
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I guess his role was seen as an extension of the 'deep-lying centre-forward' role of Hidegkuti (not in a 4-3-3 and still IMO not in a real 4-2-4 even though some people do think of Bozsik and Hidegkuti as a midfield duo - my understanding/view has moved slightly more towards thinking of him in that role as an AM rather than nominally a forward who just drops deep often before coming forwards - same idea though, but I'd think of that Hungarian formation as more like 3-2-3-2 or maybe 4-1-3-2 I think). So, I think Bobby Charlton became more like a CAM/just a CM (the formations were moving well away from WM but I guess his role description and shirt number carried over from those days) which is how you remember him.

    But, yeah he wasn't a 'false 9' like Cruyff although I know Roy remembers when he was playing as a more advanced player as inside forward in his younger years. For England, at the head of the diamond/penguin formation he was also a definate AM (sort of like Hidegkuti but in a different formation without wingers) - I've seen the captions labelling that England teams formation as 4-3-3 but Roy has said it was seen as the diamond/penguin which is what I thought (well I didn't know about the penguin part - wingless - until he mentioned it).
     
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  21. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Yes but that game did not feature Best, Bobby Charlton .. until 1968 they indeed played 4 3 3 for most games
     
  22. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    #572 JamesBH11, Dec 21, 2013
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2013
    You are both right ...
    As Roy said too, Sir Bobby did play as CF at his early days and became more of an AM or deeplying CF in most part until retirement day ... (from 3 2 2 3 to 4 3 3).

    1- A note of different 4 3 3 from ManU days to Cruijff Ajax:
    - Ajax and Holland played a FLAT 4 3 3 (since they employed Total Footbal)
    - ManU played 4 3 3 but more like 4 2 1 3 with Sir Bobby in center - a la Platini (Juve) or Zico (Flamengo, Undinese)

    Barca 2010 - now employed EXACT the same FLAT 4 3 3 of Cruijff 's (& Michel)

    2- Hungary team with their "Revolution 2 3 5" formation:
    I am sorry but have to correct the "false claim" that Hungary 53-54 playing like 4 2 4 .
    Even with Hidegkuti withdrawn deep in MF, the DF were NOT lined up with 4 (as in 4 2 4 a la Brazil) but more like 1 3 or 3 1 .... so in a way they were like 3 1 2 4 or 3 2 1 4 to be specific ...

    3 Another "mistery" of #9 of ManU, and may be Roy can answer :
    - Thruout career, why ONLY Bobby could conserve his #9 shirt number despite of changing in different tactics and formation ? May be he was UNTOUCHABLE back then?
    - Look G Best, D Law, Herd ... and others all had to change their shirt NUMBER due to tactics
    (Best 11 to 7 and back to 11, D Law from 8 to 10 and soemtimes 11, Herd 10 to 8 and 11 ...)
     
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  23. Zlatko2010

    Zlatko2010 Member

    Mar 16, 2013
  24. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Is Messi currently reinventing himself, again? 08-09 he became the worlds best player as a winger, 09-11 he moved more to the center, as a center forward and remained as the worlds best player, 11-13 he changed yet again and still remained worlds best player as a false 9. Now the teams insist of clogging the center every time, and trying to deny space just from hi m so he's countering that by moving again, to further from the clog, and playing more like a attacking midfielder. Will be interesting to see if he can again remain as the best player, yet again. He's the ultimate total footballer really.
     
  25. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    Regarding George Best's shirt numbers back in the 1960s I had a look at one of the finest sources for shirt numbers of "The Football League", a series of books by Tony Brown called "The Football League - Match by Match" which chronicles every FL season since Eighteenhundredwhatever.

    These were the numbers G.Best wore (I don't have the book for 64-65 so that season is missing):

    1963-64
    10 times #7
    7 times #11

    1965-66
    18 times #7
    6 times #11
    5 times #8
    2 times #10

    1966-67
    31 times #7
    11 times #11

    1967-68
    29 times #7
    9 times #10
    3 times #11

    1968-69
    31 times #11
    8 times #7
    1 time #8
    1 time #9

    1969-70
    29 times #11
    4 times #8
    2 times #7
    2 times #10

    Altogether:
    95 times #7
    87 times #11
    13 times #10
    10 times #8
    1 time #9
     
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