I thought this deserved it's own thread. I'll continue to add more topics in relation to our squad and the team building process. Hopefully the mods don't kill this as it could be a good discussion thread about the club as a whole and our development and improvement back to being a big club. Juventus vs Liverpool comparison (2007-2012) I've done a bit of study of Juventus recently and in my opinion, they are a good comparison to us in recent years. Juventus are one of the world’s biggest clubs, and at times, have been THE world's biggest club in terms of reputation, ambition and performances domestically and in Europe. Now they, like us, are on the way back up from their own recent disappointments. I'll start from the 2007-08 season, when Juventus were promoted back to Serie A after the 2006 Calciopoli scandal. Comparisons can be made between Claudio Ranieri, who was appointed coach of Juventus at the start of the 2007-08 season, and Rafa Benitez in regards to their team's playing style, especially during the first phase of their team-building. Ranieri often uses a variation of a 4-4-2 with emphasis on the transition/counter-attacking phase of play. His team's often look like they capable of playing 'better' football, but usually maintain their preference for being compact in the defensive phase and letting their offence start from being good without the ball and then running into space in the front half. Against the better teams, Ranieri's team would also often play very deep, looking rather scrappy, but still organised at the same time, only to surprise people with a win in difficult circumstances (the Milan derby recently was a good example). Tactically, he is slightly different to Rafa in that he's probably better at finding a weakness in the opposition for his team to exploit in the offensive phase, while Rafa is a master at being able to get his team to alter the opposition's usual strategy, disrupting their rhythm, usually done through defensive work (where they start pressing, where they force the opponents etc). Despite Juventus just coming up from Serie B, they were still a "big club", and both teams were in a similar period to start the 07-08 season. After both team's had a promising season, the next season was always going to be about "taking the next step" and challenging for the title. Both team's then 'splashed the cash' on another striker to add to their current squad, after both team's had a centre-forward and 2nd-striker score the majority of their goals. After some promise, both strikers ended up being a failure to varying degrees, who didn't actually help the team win more games. While Ranieri has shown an ability to create very good teams, even in the most dire circumstances, Rafa has shown an ability to create very good-to-great teams that are capable of winning and dominating. Ranieri is definitely slightly behind Rafa in this aspect. Obviously, as the results show, we were able to step up a level to become true title challenger from the 07-08 season to the 08-09 season, while Juventus were second for the majority of the season but finished with 4 wins, 6 draws and 1 loss from their final 11 matches while we had 10 wins and 1 draw from our final 11 matches. Both teams also had a high amount of draws, maybe a sign of the lack of title-winning experience. However, this wasn't a bad thing, as every team needs to take steps to reach the top. Everything was looking fairly good for both clubs, but both knew there were holes in the squad that needed to be filled. The obvious difference here is that Juventus thought that Ranieri wasn't capable of leading this team to win the Scudetto (and I agree), and brought in Ciro Ferrara, which was always going to be a mistake. This was not the situation for a first time manager (he'd only been an assistant before). Both teams had fairly similar acquisitions. Both teams signed two players in their peak years to fill big holes in the team (ages at the time: Diego 24 years of age, Melo 26; Aquilani 25, Johnson 25) as well as signing an experienced defender and an experienced wide player. Unfortunately for both teams, the 09-10 season was a huge failure, especially in relation to both club's ambitions. Both teams had similar Champions League results and in the league, both teams managed to win quite a few matches, but also lost more than usual. After season's like this it is understandable for a club like Liverpool or Juventus to sack the manager, although Liverpool had a better 7th-placed season than Juve and Rafa is a better manager than Ferrara. After a season like this, both teams decided to appoint a small-club manager for the 2010-11 season, one who has been stable in the respective countries and had consistent results. That person (Luigi Delneri and Roy Hodgson respectively) was meant to 'stabalise the sinking ship' at Juventus and Liverpool. We all know about Woy, but here are a few details about Delneri. Sounds kind-of like Hodgson, ey? As Hodgson did, he spoke about the history of the club, creating the team in his own image and spoke about how his results with smaller teams gave him this opportunity with a big club. ...more on Delneri and Hodgson soon... As you can see, both teams had a big turnover, which was partly down to having a new manager with new ideas and having a poor 2009-10 season. Both teams had good ins during the winter (Barzagli and Matri for Juventus, Suarez for Liverpool). However, the difference between the two clubs can be seen by total quality of depth that Juventus' 'ins' provided compared with Liverpool's (Pepe, Krasic, Bonucci, Quagliarella, Barzagli and Matri). From all of these changes, here are the 2010-11 season results: Back to Luigi Delhodgson, or Woy Delneri, and stats that will impress the ladies... Luigi Delneri approximate career winning percentage = 39% Luigi Delneri winning percentage at Juventus (2010-11) = 39.47% Just like Woy Hodgson did with us that season with his 35% career and Liverpool winning record. Both teams got exactly what each manager's previous record stated. And even though Kenny ‘saved’ us to an extent, we finished out of the CL and with the same number of points as Juventus. That is not up to Liverpool standard. Now onto this season...2011-12. After two mediocre seasons, both clubs appointed coaches with Juventus- and Liverpool-blood respectively. We all know Kenny, but here's a bio on Antonio Conte. Antonio Conte Age: 42 Juventus playing career (1991-2004); 419 appearances. In short, Conte is a winner. He has a very strong mentality, has always been a leader, and he captained Juventus during a successful period in the club’s history. In 13 years as a player with Juventus, Conte assembled an impressive list of honours: 5 league titles, a Champions League, a UEFA Cup, a Coppa Italia, four Italian Super Cups, an Intercontinental Cup and a European Super Cup. He showed great character and drive each time he pulled on the Juventus shirt, and it is these qualities that caught the affection of the Juventus fans, as the driving force of the team, the captain and leader. His winning mentality, leadership skills, and the ability to influence others, has formed the basis of his short career as a manager to date. Before Juventus, he managed Arezzo (06-07), Bari (07-09), Atalanta (09-10) and Siena (10-11). He won the Serie B with Bari in 08-09 and also got Siena promoted to Serie A in 2010-11, continuing to show his success as a manager. How does Conte set up his team? Here's a funny piece that I found. Good lad. While you can see that he can be an intelligent, witty character, these days Conte's persona as the head coach of Juventus is all seriousness. His Juventus team play with good spacing in the offensive phase, are well organised defensively, with very aggressive pressing when as soon as they lose the ball and Rafa-like pressing in most other situations. Defensively, each player's movements are dictated mainly by the ball and the positioning of their teammates. Again, this is very similar to Rafa. They are very quick on the counter, and can be devastating if given space to work with...something that is very impressive to create in such a short period of time. He almost always sticks to his philosophy in regards to pressing and tempo. In terms of formations, he favours a 4-4-2/4-2-4, but has used an asymmetrical 4-3-3 many times this season. In the ‘big’ games against high quality opponents, he has often used a formation/system that most effectively disrupts the opposition. For example, he matched Udinese's 3-5-2 formation in their match-up, going head-to-head with the wing-backs, while putting his 3 central midfielders in positions to effectively press Udinese and have enough space on the ball to control the tempo of the game. Here are some quotes to give you more of an idea into his mentality and how he's approached this season, taking over a big club that is struggling (like us). Juventus ended up drawing 1-1 at home vs Bologna. However, Vucinic was sent off in the 1st half after scoring and they went into half-time 1-0. They conceded in the 52nd minute and played the entire second half with 10 men. Conte was happy after the match, not for the result, but for the execution and performance, and praised the "mentality and character" of his team. They managed to maintain 61% possession in the 2nd half, creating more chances with aggressive pressing in a 4-4-1. They went looking for the win, just like a "big club" should. The 2nd half was a very impressive performance, arguably the most impressive of the season due to the difficult circumstances. Also, the second paragraph in the quote is something that reminds me of us under Rafa. He's like Rafa in many ways, with more emphasis placed on the offensive phase of play. If he keeps on improving, he could become one of the most successful coaches in history. Match result: Juventus 2-0 Milan Juventus: 56% possession; 16 chances; 7 on target. Milan: 44% possession; 4 chances; 1 on target. To start the match, given Milan's general lack of width, Juventus started with an emphasis on providing crosses into the box. However, this wasn't working, so mid-match, Conte changed the teams approach. He told Vucinic to keep his positioning high and Juve used him as the target player for combinations around the edge of the box. It was the change in offensive approach that won the match for Juventus. He was able to see the problem, and altered it according to what he believed would beat the opposition. Have we ever done this in a match under Kenny? Relentless is the word. Rafa’s Valencia ‘crushing machine and Liverpool through the 2008-09 season come to mind from that quote. Conte quote: Again, striving for perfection, or close to it and certainly not happy with 4th-6th and a cup-run. This is the mentality that has escaped Liverpool. Even now under Kenny we seem too happy with mediocrity. We shouldn't be happy, or celebrating anything until we've won the Premier League and Champions League. Why have I provided so much information on Conte and Juventus? It's probably the best comparison to our current situation, and it shows that there are certain steps that we haven't taken to address our current issues. We are not a "big club" at the moment, and under Kenny we seem to be establishing ourselves as a mid-table club more every day. I put the blame for our current season entirely on Kenny and the coaching staff. They have not worked efficient enough and obviously haven't worked hard enough in creating the right atmosphere and mentality at the club to create a team that performs to a greater level than the sum of its parts. They lost their starting midfield from 2010-11 season (Melo and Aquilani), which was working well, and only spent ~40 million pounds on the above players. It's not a great list of acquisitions, but they got the right players into the club. Here are Juventus' three general starting line-ups: 4-3-3 ___Vucinic________Matri__________Pepe___ __________Marchisio___Vidal_____________ _________________Pirlo__________________ Chiellini____Bonucci___Barzagli___Lichtsteiner ________________Buffon________________ 3-5-2 ____________Matri_____Pepe/Vucinic______ ___________Marchisio___Vidal_____________ Estigarribia________Pirlo________Lichtsteiner ______Chiellini___Bonucci___Barzagli_______ ________________Buffon________________ 4-4-2/4-2-4 ___________Vucinic____Matri____________ Pepe_____________________________Krasic __________Marchisio___Pirlo______________ Chiellini____Bonucci___Barzagli___Lichtsteiner ________________Buffon________________ And here are the results from what Conte has implemented with Juventus. Kenny made us believe for the briefest moment that he had the ability to make us a big club again. However, if I could go back to June 2011, I would do whatever it took to get Antonio Conte to Liverpool, and pay for any English lessons needed. But wishes are for children. I yearn for the days of this lady…
Wow. Do you actually have a day job??? Very comprehensive and interesting analysis. Also takes the emotion out of any appraisal of Dalglish which is really key at this point. I'm looking forward to reading other peoples' views on this. I really want to avoid knee-jerk reactions, but I think its very fair at this point to say that Kenny has not yet proven he's the man to take us back to "top club" status. So, what needs to change? Whatever happens, one can only hope he can retain his status as a club legend over the long term. Right now, it doesn't feel like this chapter in his LFC career is going to end well.
I doubt it will end soon either BUT he has to do something positive for the team (and me) soon. Wednesday would be a good time!
I don't see the point in the original post. Why compare Liverpool to a team in Serie A? What I saw in the first half of the game yesterday was an offensive without any cohesion and limited ability to score. They got the one goal a game that they've been averaging. However, they failed to keep it tight in the back on two occasions early on. There were a few sparks from Andy Carroll in a decent header early on, plus the assist. But Kenny needs to come up with some kind of strategy - are we going to base the attack on playing longballs to Carroll's head - or more a possession game like in previous years? Clint Dempsey had a big game, on a side note. I think a lot of changes need to be made at Liverpool with the staff and personnel - that much is becoming clearer. Bolton was a missed opportunity to pick up ground in the quest to make the champions league.
It pains me say this but...... I have to agree with lexis. So this guy is winning in Italy. The EPL is, right now, a league with two teams with unlimited resources and three other very good teams. Jumping ahead will not be as easy for us. I am embarrassed to lose to Bolton but the reason was a team defensive collapse on two first half goals. Without that we are in a 1-1 draw at the death and who knows what happens. I am certain that we are going through a transition and it will take another year or two. Grinners forgets that, while the immortal Rafa got us a Champions league Cup in Istanbul, it took a player lead comeback to do it, and we had to get an execution from UEFA to get us in the CL the following year as we didn't qualify that year. It took two years more for us to make a lone run at the league. So I do think we need to wait just a bit more before drawing conclusions.
here's my take on the rebuild: kenny came in almost exactly one year ago.. we got suarez, dumped torres and then started flying up the table with suarez, maxi, kuyt and meireles shredding defenses... we had a lot of turnover in the squad and they all looked like good moves on paper... downing for balance, adam as a squad player, henderson and coates for the future, bellamy for some pace and guile upfront to join/replace suarez, and enrique for a quality left-back we've needed for years... and we dumped the 'dead wood'.. but, look at the team objectively... we have fifth or sixth-place talent... and going into the new year, we were still within a shout of a CL place (and it still remains a distinct possibility, if we could all get our heads out of the oven long enough to recognize it)... we've also kept in touch of fourth without our skipper and talisman for most of the season (an unforseen problem that i think cuased a significant increase in playing time for henderson, adam)... and now, we're without our best creator, suarez... and losing our best and most-consistent player this season, lucas... it will take this team a few more windows to get the talent level back up... we haven't yet recovered from the asset-stripping of mascherano and alonso... and the utter crap-fest that was roy/purslow's tenure and cole, jova, poulsen... we had a good window in the summer, we've just been undone by the evra/suarez controversy, which has undoubtedly affected the whole club... the only thing that i think has been a colossal failure of kenny, commolli a FSG's tenure was the panic buy of carroll... all of which we've discussed to death on here... so, to sum up: yes, we've had a rotten january (don't we always?), carroll has been a bust, and adam/henderson have played more than i think we've planned with injuries to gerrard and lucas... but, really, we're about where we should be if talent of the squad is a judge... and who would have thought that kuyt would be having such a poor season and that meireles would have been such an important player for us? two bad games in a row and we're ready to jump all over kenny? what, are we chelsea fans, now?
There's a reason why some people like Matt Clark on these forums didn't want Kenny to come back, as he would be subject to a lot of venomous vitriol and knee jerking, and why would we want a club legend to cop that? Not that I'm denigrating Grinners original post, as that was a fairly balanced opinion, esp for Grinners , but on the whole, a lot of posters seem to get very negative, very quickly. As Poops suggested above, are we becoming Chelsea fans? Sack Kenny now....... Sure, no-one should be above criticism, however, surely no-one expected this to be a one year solution. Give the man time, to work out what/who he requires in a squad, what tactics are needed to win in today's football, and then continue the critiques by this time next year. The King should have enough brownie points to last that long without his tactics and reasoning being questioned after every loss.
If it gets worse in Liverpool, like the team falls apart and generally loses confidence in Kenny, he'll have to go. If I were Kenny, I would have veterans like Kuyt, Bellamy play up top, with Gerrard, Maxi and Downing moving the ball in the midfield. Those guys will give you an honest effort and generally be skilled. Plus, the team would be free of the burden of having to find proper service to Carroll's head. This is what the team needs right now..
Carroll, Suarez, Jose Enrique, Adam, Henderson, Downing, Bellamy - all players brought in during the last year who have seen significant playing time. This is literally a whole new Liverpool team guys. Kenny deserves time to develop his new system. And we have to remember that our best player (Stevie G) has been absent for pretty much the entire time Dalglish has been manager. I think Kenny knows what he is doing and I think that we will add more talent in the summer (thanks to new owners and new kit deal). This is the deepest squad we have had for a long time. It's missing 1-3 pieces. In my opinion these pieces are (in order of importance): Right Winger, Left Winger, Forward.
2 bad games? Have you been living in a cave since September? Bolton was simply the straw that broke the camel's back. Kenny needs to realize his current plan, whether tactically or player management simply aren't working and changes are needed, particularly in the midfield. Whoever thought Downing, Hendo and Adam were the answer clearly got it wrong. He's got to fix it fast or we risk becoming Everton.
Right now, we're 7th best in the league by rights as the table doesn't lie. We're not far from fourth, yet, but short of a massive turnaround in performances will most likely stay there. This has been mentioned elsewhere-- can't remember where or when-- but did the management (Comolli and Dalglish) under-estimate the strength of the Premier League, especially with regards to breaking into the top four? A few years ago, the recent acquisitions would probably have sufficed to get back into the Champions League. Not any more, they don’t. There is more than just Arsenal and Chelsea to tussle with. We also have a very strong Tottenham and resurgent Newcastle all fighting for that spot, and just below are Sunderland, Stoke, Aston Villa and Everton (stop that barracking from the back) who are making some very astute acquisitions for far less outlay and will keep putting pressure from below. And, I think Suarez and Lucas were masking some major deficiencies in the whole team. Can these be addressed? On paper, there is not a reason why. What will be crucial is whether these players have what it takes to get to the next level. So far the signs have been depressing but maybe the message has not just been rammed home well enough. And, mostly, our crowd doesn’t boo its own players so the public disgruntlement (and it's there in spades) will not have got through to the players. That public rant by Dalglish aimed at both the players and fans alike may just be what the doctor ordered. Oh, did I mention that we’re still, despite having a bog-standard midfield, 6 points off fourth?
If Grinners can put the same post in two spots, why can't I do that as well? Well, I am unhappy with the recent spate of results but we are missing our best forward and two best holding mids. What so many of you don't understand is that its not the Carroll and Suarez for Torres movement that is the problem. The current management bought what they could this summer with the hand that they were dealt. Where we experienced the decline was in the failure to replace Alonso and Mascherano with adequate replacement. We wasted those funds on Aquilani and Merelies who we had to offload for less than their cost and arguably their worth. Players like Poulsen and Cole took their place. You can't totally whiff on two years of transfer activity while losing two world class players and improve. All that happenned before Kenny and Comilli. Remember the two ********ing theives? Would Kenny have bought Young over Downing? -- the answer is yes, but Young wanted the CL and the Mancs. He thought that was a better chance to win things. Would Kenny have bought Phil Jones? Well we know we went after Jones and lost. So whether it is some dodgy Italian, or a living legend, we were not getting those players. Adam is one you can lay at Kenny's feet but he really didn't cost that much and he is designed to be a squadie and a stop gap until better comes along. Events have led to him playing more than is good for him or us. On the other hand, it was Kenny who had the balls to bring in Bellamy and see how that has worked out. And while Enrique has his faults, we haven't leaked goals from the left fullback position as we did during the previous two years. So have some courage and faith, we are slowly building a base of top notch young players. Some will emerge to play for the club and play well. I don't buy into "the kids never get a chance at Liverpool" meme. Almost all of the kids we never gave a chance to have done very little elsewhere. The best of the lot are Guthrie and Zak Whitbread, and neither would be an improvement over players we currently have. I lay that to poor acquisition and poor development. Now we have a first class development structure and involvement by the manager and technical director in the daily work of development. We are finding players in Mexico, the US, Portugal, Sweden and Ghana. And we are willing to pay to bring them onboard. This will pay off, I have no doubt.
Totally agree with this. Let's not compare apples and oranges too much. Also, while we all hoped and wished for an immediate turn around, it was clear from the moment the new owners took over that their philosophy was going to be a "building from the ground up" approach. With an aging backbone of Carragher and Gerrard, and the turnover of play-makers in the midfield and offense (Torres and Alonso)... there was always going to be a need to find long-term replacements to build the core of the team around. Since the owners have apparently decided on a course of building from youth and young starting players, it may be a couple of years before we really see enough growth of these new pieces to effectively compete for titles. I'm not convinced that we can really know yet whether Dalglish is or is not the manager to take full advantage of and shape a new team-- imho it's just too early in the rebuilding process.
I understand that there are still some reasons to be optimistic, but I also believe that from the experience of the last year, there should be three major lessons learned: 1) Never bring too many new players into the side at the same time. This I already knew from my Football Manager (the computer game) days. It destroys team chemistry, which is very important. A high level of trust and commitment is needed to survive a 50+ match season. 2) When buying young players from lesser clubs, thought needs to be put into how and whether their skill set will translate to Liverpool. This will help avoid potential mistakes like Carroll, who thrived on the long passing game played at Newcastle. 3) Character counts. Suarez, Carroll and Downing have all been in the news for reasons other than their playing ability. This can bring down the overall morale and focus of the squad as it deals with distraction. If we follow those three things going forward, I think our acquisitions will have a lot more success.
Not to take away anything from an otherwise fine post but I hoped the days of comparing management simulations to real life had gone whether it be how good players would be in the English league or how we can improve in different formations. I'd also like to echo Liverbirds post that it is ridiculous to be questioning Daglish at this stage. A year and two weeks he's been in charge and in that time we 've both improved dramatically( despite recent results) and are on course for our first silverware in 6 years. After Shankly no one has done more for this club than Daglish. If he cant be given complete support God help the next guy.
I mean, if we're going to use pointless comparisons, I can just easily point out that in 1987-88, Kenny brought in Barnes, Aldridge, Houghton and Beardsley, sold Rush, lost Lawrenson to injury, and integrated Ablett into the lineup. That was arguably the best Liverpool team of all time. Or that Houllier bought Hyypia, Henchoz, Hamann, Westerveld and the incomparable Titi Camara in 1999-2000. In 2001, we won the UEFA Cup and finished second in the league. Or that ManU could still win the title with a team that's revamped from top to bottom. There's nothing wrong with bringing in lots of players.
OR the lesson could be that when it is necessary to bring many new players to increase the quality in the squad, fans should have some patience and perspective, and understand it may take time to for the new players to settle. Unless you are saying we should have kept Konchesky and not brought in Enrique, kept Poulson, and not brought in Adam, etc. Every player that has left, has been replaced by a player with more quality. They may be out of form or not settled as quickly as we'd hope, but they are better players.
Hey, C'mon Guys! Loosen up a little! There's nothing wrong with learning something from a computer simulation, I think FM is a great game. First of all, I was a full-time soccer coach for five years, a college coach for two, of course you have to log field time. But that said, I learned a lot from FM and some of those tactics really helped me when I was coaching! If you haven't yet played it, I would say FM is an outstanding game and that you don't know what you are missing! I'm too busy to be an addict at this point, and of course I wouldn't base real-life transactions off of it if I were Comolli or Kenny, no one expects that. But even upgrading the quality, I think they would have been better off adding 4-5 players instead of 7-8. It's a fair point, whether in FM or real life! Avoiding the temptation to overhaul the squad is a lesson learned here at Liverpool with this year's struggles, I believe, one has to think that FM was pretty successful there in mimicking real life! I started on CM01/02 with the text screens...
So, we'll bash the kid for referencing a video game? Have failed to realize that pretending this is a "video game" is exactly what Commoli and Dalglish have done? They blew apart last year's squad that tore up the second half of the season (Kuyt, Maxi, Meireles, Kelly) and replaced them with guys who have underperformed (Carroll, Downing, Adam, Enrique). Now, sure, these guys could come good eventually and probably will. But, the whole premise of being successful by instantly replacing 4 players in the starting eleven was naive. Unless, of course, they really didn't think they were going to make it into the top four this year. Then, fine, this year is a throwaway and we keep developing the new guys. Oh, btw, the whole "saving wages" argument is ********ing nonsense. We will lose millions by not making it into Europe again. We could have paid Aquilani and Meireles, and then sold them next year anyway.
...and there's no guarantee that Aquilani will be at Milan next season...he may be back with us in pre-season again.
You can learn something from everything. I agree with your point on buying 4-5 players rather than 7-8. We weren't in the stage (like in 2004-06) where our squad was so short on quality that we needed that many in. Reina, Skrtel, Agger, Carragher, Kyrgiakos, Wilson, Johnson, Kelly, Aurelio, Insua, Flanagan, Robinson, Lucas, Gerrard, Aquilani, Meireles, Spearing, Shelvey, Kuyt, Maxi, J.Cole, Pacheco, Suarez, Carroll and N'Gog were part of our squad on July 1st. While I can understand adding Doni, an experienced back-up GK, you shouldn't have to add 6 outfield players to that squad.
Graeme Souness made this same move and suddenly Liverpool were not the super team they were for 20 years. We'll probably never recover those glory days. Unless we maybe put the Grin and 26 in charge.