The Economist - Israel's security barrier. A safety measure or a land grab?

So you're saying it's as easy to raise the dead as it is to move somewhere? Yes, I'm being facetious but surely, you can spot the serious flaw in your argument.

Then the Jews who DID move to Israel weren't very good Jews because they disbelieved in Yahweh's magic carpet service? "Get real", as they say. I believe more in human social inertia than I do in this kind of explanation. I think that, for the most part and with exceptions, the Jews simply settled down where they were and that was that. They wouldn't be the first people to do so and they won't be the last. As much as they remembered the land of Israel from their holy books, "Next year.." became a figure of speech and not a practical call to action. I do not see why this view upsets you if you're not a zionist. I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

OK, now you're getting somewhere.

First, I'm not saying you personally believe in Yahweh Airlines that was supposed to magically transport all Jews to Israel.

Second, It is exactly the fact that the zionists distorted a particular folk belief to make an unjustified historical claim to the land. This claim was built on sand but it is still being made today much the same way the Protocols are still being circulated by anti-semites. Those trying to justify Israel's existence by some mystical historical claim that trumps everyone else's are part of the problem, not the solution. If you know that, then we have nothing to discuss. But you gave no evidence to show that you alsio recognize the bogusness of the special historical claim.

As I said before, while it is usually wise to heed Mr. Santayana's advice, there are certain circumstances in which history is no longer a useful tool but a shackles. The way history is being abused by both sides in Israel is a horrible perversion. It is my opinion that everyone would be better off if the Palestinians and Israelis all suddenly developed a case of historical amnesia. If you disagree, it is not the end of the world.

 

If only because on a broad scale, it wasn't a crime. It was the natural result of Egypt and Jordan going toes up in the Six Day War.

Stealing land...on a case by case basis, sometimes it's a crime, sometimes it's what happens when the other side in the civil war takes over a building. Israel did and does that sort of thing a lot, but it's a civil war. Maybe negotiating would work better than what the Palestinians have tried so far? It's not as if Israel isn't doing what the Arabs wouldn't have done, had the fortunes of war played differently. Except there are Palestinians left alive, so it's not an exact parallel.

I don't get anywhere near as exercised about that as I do about Palestinian terrorism.

 

I absolutely agree with you here.

So, lets play out the scenario - both sides agree that "history-be-damned", a free and independant Palestine (or, more probably, two Palestines - Gaza and West Bank) are created next to Israel along some boundaries that somehow the prinicples can also agree on.

This works fine until you face the next reality - the majority of Israelis would gladly trade land for real peace (the vocal minority of right wing settlers be damned). The majority of Palestinians are not interested in this but rather the destruction of Israel. Now, perhaps, once real statehood occurs, the Palestinian leaders might stand up and be heard and convince the majority of Palestinian people that they must enter the world of nations and give up killing innocent people along with their own children. Though I would like to beleive this, there is little evidence.

Who and where are these Palestinian leaders ?
If you were running Israel, would you bet your country's future safety on this hope, based on the past 3 years ?

 

A long list of Palestinian and a few ultra-left Israeli web sites isn't exactly an education.

I'll use your logic and mention that most Palestinians were born after 1967 so they have nothing to complain about.

But, really, all I want to know is what you think about Dominic DiMaggio. You've been conspicuously absent from that conversation.

 

You're good, I'll give you that.

 

No, they conquered by telepathy and nobody ever moved an inch for centuries.

No, that's not correct. I just don't agree with your "stealing" argument and I firmly believe Israel has the better historical claim to that tiny plot of land. However, I also realize that there are now millions of Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza so OBVIOUSLY a two-state solution is the only reasonable one. I just don't view it as a thief giving up his spoils, more as two sides hopefully making a compromise. The more people call Isarelis theives, the less likely they will want to make peace. At best, it's counterproductive.

I also highly doubt it would end there. Israel will never have a second of peace or a second of security. No matter what it does.

LOL. I hope you don't really believe this.

You were right the first time, when you said that people go insane when discussing Israel. You too.

BTW, no comment on Dom DiMaggio? (oops, sorry for my plot to hijack the thread...)

 

If you disagree, then what would you call it? "Objective fact"?

Many Muslims believe in spirits called djinn. Some of them even act on the belief, taking steps to avoid angering them. Many Muslims don't. So what is the belief in djinn? Is it a religious belief when half the followers of the religion don't believe in it?

I consider the belief that Jews have to live in the holy land or that Yahweh will magicaly ship them there a folk belief. It once had more power and could motivate a whole people to return to the holy land from Babylon. It gradually lost its power as the vast majority of Jews now live outside the holy land and have absolutely no plans to move there, regardless of how much they may tell each other "Next year...".

Much of the fighting in the world is over such beliefs that either have or are losing their power. It is happening within Islam no less than within Judaism and Christianity. It is why the fundamentalists in the Saudi kingdom and Egypt hate their own rulers as much as they hate anyone outside Islam. It is why poor Yitzakh Rabin was killed by one of his own people. It is why nationalists and bigots of all sorts are now in power in many places that used to be communist. It is why supposedly educated men in the world's most prosperous country run about with firearms in the woods and build compounds in mountains and blow up government buildings. You don't have to be Benjamin Barber to know that.

 

If both peoples really got some historical amnesia, then the Arabs would forget about how the British lied to them and ineptly bungled the creation of Israel. Therefore, the idea of a Palestinian state would hopefully cease to exist as would terrorism and human rights abuses and on and on.

Call me a heretic, but I'm now convinced that a Palestinian state is just a bad idea. Even if Israel gave them a legitimate continuous area (and they won't, ever) Israel itself needs foreign aid to get by and they're far more advanced than the Palestinians in that regard. If the Palestinians became part of Jordan, maybe. But as a seprate state, it just doesn't make sense. Riyadh, Doha, and Abu Dhabi wouldn't pay for it and that's what it would take to make it even come close to working.

The real answer is for both sides to just get along where they are with Israel letting the Palestinians back to their homes on the west bank. The Palestinians would live peacefully and begin to copy Israel's economy while Israel would only take prudent security measures and not commit human rights abuses of their own, be they with guns or the economy. This impossible scenario would be the best thing that ever happened to both the Palestinians and the Israelis. So of course, my great grandchildren will still be reading about the latest suicide bombing and the latest Israeli "retaliatory strike".

Bah, now I'm depressed. I'm off to see if the harem can cheer me up.

 

This is simply wrong. According to Harper's Index, a survey of Palestinian refugee camp residents by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research concluded that a narrow majority would accept compensation and homes in a Palestinian state. Only 10% would refuse any arrangement that did not imply or require the destruction of Israel. On the flip side, an Israeli NGO called Peace Now found that more than 4 in 5 Jewish settlers would move from the West Bank and Gaza with appropriate compensation.

However, the leaders of Israel and the Palestinians appear to be incapable of (Arafat) and unwilling to (Sharon) implementing the wills of their people.

 

ter·ror·ism n.
The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

ter·ror·ist n.
One that engages in acts or an act of terrorism.

According to this they are, but don't let fact stand in your way Sardinia. I am sure you can find a dictionary that defines terrorism in a way more suited to your beliefs.

 

I absolutely love when you do this! Show me where I said any of the above. You can't! I love when you contradict yourself too!

 

"Put me a bad vote" This is an American website learn to speak the proper language...and then stop contradicting yourself and using false history to back up your statements and avoiding any real questions.

 

This is typical of why we argue with you. You (any of us) can find an article on the web that takes any position about any subject in this day and age. You take the first thing you find, regardless of source and legitimacy (like the site that lists how Israel started all of the wars with the Arab nations) and throw it at us as fact. I have found many of these types of sites that are pro-Israeli but do not use them because they are not credible. I would love to have a real discussion and tried (when I asked you about why you have such strong feeling on this subject about your background) but you refuse, resorting to smartass answers. As you have done above. So don't blame me for this. oh and I would love to discuss in Italian but I don't speak it!

 

"Put me a bad vote" This is an American website learn to speak the proper language"
Punctuation?

"and then stop contradicting yourself and using false history to back up your statements and avoiding any real questions"
and...and...and....and...

Prick.

 

Actually, in the minds of most rational people, it depends on who you target.