The Democrat dilemma - confusing ideals with methods

Discussion in 'Elections' started by Nutmeg, Nov 3, 2004.

  1. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    After reading through who-knows-how-many threads on why Kerry lost, what went wrong, and what do the Dems need to do to win America back, or just crying in their beer and threatening to leave the country, I've come to a conclusion.

    Democrats are weenies. You are the notorious SoccerFan. You are the pock-faced whiner in the front right corner of the classroom who consoles himself by telling himself and everyone else he's right, even if nobody likes him enough to give a sh!t.

    So why am I writing this? I am a Republican. I voted for Bush. I think Reagan was one of America's most effective heroes ever. So why should you care what I think? Here's a dirty little secret I keep to myself when I go to the KKK meetings with the rest of my wealthy peers. You can win me. You Democrats can get my vote. But not without some radical change in your party - a complete reevaluation and possible overhaul of everything you think Democrats should stand for versus everything they really should stand for. To wit:

    Number one, stop being p ussies. Make up your mind right now that when you identify the values that really get your blood burning, you are going to stand by them and articulate them every chance you get. Don't shy away from them. Don't eschew them even if it means you lose an election or two. They're too important, and in the long-run, changing your values and views only confuses and makes your base despondant.

    Number two, and this will be the hard part. Identify two things. What are your values, your ideals, etc, and what are simply methods to help you achieve those values. Separate them. Disconnect them. Emotionally detach yourself from your methods. Hold to your ideals as if they were your own little aborted fetus.

    Number three, and this will be even harder than number two. Prepare to conduct a full-scale examination on whether or not the methods you've been using to achieve your ideals actually work. If not - or even more importantly, if there is a better way to achieve your ideals - let go of the old way of doing things. Adapt. Change. Move on.

    So let's go through a hypothetical excercise here, in blue...

    I'm a hypothetical Democrat. I believe in helping the poor. That's my ideal. Doing what is right for the greater good, even if it means sacrificing some of my own comforts, is near and dear to me. The method I have been using for the past who-knows-how-long is to blame somebody else for poor people. Poor people don't want to be poor. That's stupid. Who the hell would want that? So I'll blame the rich. I'll say they aren't giving back as much as they should. And I'm right damnit. Look at all these statistics that say I'm right. Listen to me! I'll keep saying it, damnit! Listen to me! AAARGH!

    OK, so I've lost a few elections. It's time to reevaluate what me and my party are all about. What to do? Hey, this Nutmeg guy has an idea. Maybe I'll try it out.

    Hmm - quit being a weenie? Yeah, I don't want to be a weenie. I'll stop doing that. Easy enough.

    Identify and separate my ideals and methods. Wait - my methods are my ideals, aren't they? They're not. They lied to me? They lied to me?

    Wait - am I being a weenie again? Oops. Moving on.

    OK - ideal - I want to help the poor. Absolutely. I believe in that. Who doesn't. Nutmeg says I should make that perfectly clear. OK, world, the ideal of my party is to HELP THE POOR.

    Next - the method. Hmmm - more taxes, especially on those rich bastards. Damn straight. ************ing evil misers. Wait - I'm getting pissed about this again. I can't be emotional about my methods. Detach. Deep breaths. Detach. Wheeeeeew. Deep breaths.

    OK - analyze. Has my method been working? Do I have any data that points me to factual evidence that it might not be working? Can my hypothesis that taxing the wealthy helps the poor be proven false? If so, what other methods are available to me?

    Wait - this is hard. I have to think for myself. I have to be creative. I have to stop swallowing everything my leaders are telling me. Am I sure I want to do this?

    Democrats - if you want my vote, and to start making inroads in states where your ass has been handed to you, you'd start better doing something... The truth is your party has some ideals that I absolutely believe in, and I think most of America does, too. What a lot of us disagree with are your methods. I think we should help the poor, too. But I don't think we should start by blaming somebody else. I think we should find a way to get people access to health care, too, but I don't think more taxes is necessarily the right answer. Not without proof. And so on. Good night - I look forward to seeing myself get ripped to shreds in the morning.
     
  2. Unorthodox Yank

    Feb 27, 2001
    Constant Flux
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Good. Now that that's out of the way, all we have to do is hope that the democratic leadership frequent the Bigsoccer politics forums.
     
  3. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    Another thread where the Morlocks give advice to the Eloi? Oh, frabjous day.
     
  4. Foosinho

    Foosinho New Member

    Jan 11, 1999
    New Albany, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ah - so the ends justify the means? One of our ideals is that the ends do NOT justify the means.

    And just so you don't think I'm a p ussy... fvck off.
     
  5. Claymore

    Claymore Member

    Jul 9, 2000
    Montgomery Vlg, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So tell me, Mr Conservative Republican, how do you feel about your boy asking that the national debt limit be raised?
     
  6. sch2383

    sch2383 New Member

    Feb 14, 2003
    Northern Virginia
    Some bloggers are trying to paint this as the election that will turn everything around, like Goldwater's loss in '64. That this is just a further move towards a national progressive movement forming that actually will be an alternate to the plague that is spreading across America; to define ourselves based on what we are, not what we aren't. While that sounds nice, I would much rather win.


    BTW here is the CSM's take on Black Tuesday
     
  7. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Fucklechester Rangers
    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard of Yo! Semite
    So let me get this straight - a Republican who has a party and who thinks that asshat Reagan was great wants the Democratic party to cater to him after making drastic changes to win his vote? My stupidity meter just broke. You've overloaded it. But let me draw you a comparable scenario.

    I would be amenable to supporting the University of Michigan's football team. I, a decade long Ohio State fan (and alum) could be persuaded to support them. However, they'd have to change. First, they'd have to stop being pvssies. Then, they would have to move "the Big House" to Columbus, next to the shoe. Then they would have to refuse to allow players who attend U of Michigan to play for them. Then, they must rename themselves "Michigan Wolverines - the Ohio State JV Squad", and finally, they must publically disavow Hail To The Victors as their chant and then set their mascot on fire (while he's still wearing the costume).
    So you see, its possible for them to get my support, but they need a complete reevaluation and possible overhaul of everything they think Wolverines should stand for versus everything they really should stand for..
     
  8. Chicago1871

    Chicago1871 Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    Chicago
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Democrats are the pussies...so that would make Republicans the assholes? ;)
     
  9. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    How about we convince doctors to give away the healthcare- but not without proof!
     
  10. MikeLastort2

    MikeLastort2 Member

    Mar 28, 2002
    Takoma Park, MD
    Sigged
     
  11. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    The Democratic dilemma is that their ideas, such as they are, unadulterated crap.

    --Democrats "love" jobs but hate the businesses that create them.

    --Democrats love to feel superior, yet hate those who don't think like them.

    --Democrats play lip service to equality, but feast upon the fuel of class hatred and class division.

    --Democrats love to think they are enlightened about humanity, but are cynical about the ability of the people to think and act for themselves.

    --Democrats believe that they are high-minded, but have contempt for those who are spritual and non-secular

    --Democrats believe the government knows best, and can do better than individuals acting on their own.

    No, it isn't about coming up with some agenda that will resonate with voters -- because their fundamental bedrock principles are slowly, but surely, alientating voters.

    Simple as that.
     
  12. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    See, that's pussy speak.

    President Bush demanded that the national debt limit be raised!
     
  13. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    Bush has put more restrictions on civil liberties and spent more of the taxpayers' oney than any President in 70 years.

    There is no longer a conservative party in America.
     
  14. spidergoose

    spidergoose Member

    Nov 2, 2004
    Annapolis
    Club:
    DC United
    This sort of thing is what I've been more or less thinking about all day. This country is practically screaming for a real third party to develop. One that's more mainstream and not out there on the fringes like the Greens and the Libertarians.

    Everyone's so frustrated at how divided everything is, how polarized this country is. In my view (whatever that's worth) part of it is because of the whole us vs. them mentality that the 2 party system has created because you're either with one side or the other. Seems like all the moderates have been shafted and the parties hijacked by the extreme ends (especially true for the Republicans). I know plenty of Republicans who can't stand the far right-wing Falwell-controlled side of the party that pushes much of the social agenda, but they still stick by the party since there's no way they could in good conscience vote for the Democrats' guy. Same thing for the Democrats.

    So frustrating.
     
  15. Attacking Minded

    Attacking Minded New Member

    Jun 22, 2002
    If we could get Democratic issues married to Republican "values" (and cull out all issues that don't match the values, i.e. Gay Marriage but not the enviroment or education) then that party would win with more than 60% of the vote.
     
  16. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Get off your high horse and stop being so frickin' pretentious.

    And by the way, put me into the category of Americans who happen to believe in our Constitution and the fact that we are supposed to live in a Republic that separates Church and State. Sorry if that is too "nuanced" or "flip-floppy" for you to comprehend.
     
  17. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Perhaps I have a higher standard for left-wingedness, but on an international scale, the Dems are extremely central.

    And that's part of their problem, that they've lost touch w/ their true base.

    (But really, how severe is the problem? By carrying so much populated states, they came w/in shot of ousting a war president. With a so-so candidate.)
     
  18. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I honestly could care less if the Dems shriveled up and died. What worries me is that the Neocons have made such inroads in the republican party, and moderate Republicans are toeing the party line.

    The thing is I am feeling better and better about the chances that those moderate Republicans are sated in just being "in charge", and are going to start making real inroads on dragging policy back to the center. I think ideally it would be a bloody, bitter affair that will break the party solidarity and restore the neo-cons to the political fringe.
    I get the sense its going to happen, the damn is going to break and all this party loyalty is going to go out the window.
     
  19. SeattleFan

    SeattleFan New Member

    Mar 4, 2000
    Redmond, WA USA
    I just wonder if what we would end up with is something like the Greens or Libertarians. I'm not sure I would fit comfortably in their corner.
     
  20. ERobens

    ERobens Member

    Feb 19, 2004
    Providence, RI
    The sooner they implode, the better. Preferably by the end of the week, before Bushie can further screw our debt situation.
     
  21. DoyleG

    DoyleG Moderator
    Staff Member

    FC Edmonton
    Canada
    Jan 11, 2002
    Winnipeg, MB
    Club:
    FC Edmonton
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    And Nader the dick? :D
     
  22. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    Fascinating to me is that I am watching News Night with Brown (I honestly don't know - is he respected in these parts?) where the Dem panel has spent almost the entire show talking about the same exact things I started this thread with. Then I switch to Fox, where Guliani (former Dem) is again saying many of these same things about the Dem party.

    Identify and articulate core ideals.

    Stand by them.

    Separate core ideals and methods, and be fine with letting less-effective methods go.
    ------------------------------------

    On to some of the responses:

    Loney: "Another thread where the Morlocks give advice to the Eloi? Oh, frabjous day."

    You're right. Your party is doing so well. Nevermind.

    Foosinho: "Ah - so the ends justify the means? One of our ideals is that the ends do NOT justify the means."

    Um, exactly what I am saying. Screw the means. They are pointless until you identify what the ends are. What were the ends that Kerry was after? A lot of voters never really understood them, if they existed at all.

    Claymore: "So tell me, Mr Conservative Republican, how do you feel about your boy asking that the national debt limit be raised?"

    Hmm. What was Kerry's better alternative? Never saw it. That's the point. You're missing it. Not surprised.

    Nicephoras: "So let me get this straight - a Republican who has a party and who thinks that asshat Reagan was great wants the Democratic party to cater to him after making drastic changes to win his vote? My stupidity meter just broke. You've overloaded it."

    Terrible analogy. But at least it confirms my suspicion that the Big10 is overrated in many more areas than just football. Yes - for the Democrats to win, they are going to have to find out how to connect with more than a minority of the population. I guess they don't cover that at OSU.

    Chicago1871: "Democrats are the pussies...so that would make Republicans the assholes? ;)"

    Yes, in my experience, many Reeps - especially the hardcore right - are **************s. Not kidding. I think some of what should be the core ideals of the Democrat party are foreign to many significant Reeps. Reeps may pay lip service to loving thy neighbor, but they'd rather buy a bigger SUV. So take what should be a core Dem ideal - helping the less-privileged. I believe in that ideal, but I despise the one method that Democrats continually tell me is the only way we can help them. Until they reevaluate their methods, Dems may be in trouble.

    The ideal is dead-on, and one that America believes in. The method to achieve the ideal is divisive and becoming marginal.

    GringoTex: "Blah."

    Avatar. Time for you to pay up.
     
  23. dj43

    dj43 New Member

    Aug 9, 2002
    Nor Cal
    Just finished watching Alan Colmes interview former Dem strategist(some of you may have seen it as well). They agreed that the Dem party has two major flaws to overcome:
    1. Democrats do not listen to their critics, Republicans do.

    2. Democrats must rid themselves of the "Michael Moore thuggery attitude of hate." That attitude scares the majority of moderate America.

    Both points entirely the view of 2 prominent Democrats. I think they are right on.
     
  24. ERobens

    ERobens Member

    Feb 19, 2004
    Providence, RI
    Oh, and just to add

    "I like you, you've got balls. I like balls."

    Nicely sums up Nutmeg's views. :D
     
  25. Foosinho

    Foosinho New Member

    Jan 11, 1999
    New Albany, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But it works so well for the neocons.
     

Share This Page