The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's a great business model, £100 million for each promotion and £40 million for every relegation.

    In my 50 years watching English soccer Fulham have mainly been a lower division team with a solid "grass roots" fanbase, but they did have a 14 year spell in the Premier League.
     
  2. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Leeds have already spent $50 million on two players and they haven't finished yet.
     
  3. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #27628 bigredfutbol, Sep 15, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
    Yeah, my perspective as a Yank who's only been following the sport the past 22 years certainly skews my perspective.

    EDIT: I hope it's clear I'm not being sarcastic...I don't have any experience following the sport prior to the Premiership era. So while sometimes it feels like I've been a fan forever, I missed out on a lot of what you all are talking about.
     
    HailtotheKing repped this.
  4. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    They were a perenially crap top level side when I first started watching. After their inevitable relegation they managed to get to an FA Cup final and have George Best play for them before descending to the fourth level.
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  5. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Johnny Haynes and all that.
     
  6. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That was right before the Al Fayed takeover, right?

    My one and only trip to London (in 2006--time flies!) included a trip to Harrod's. Didn't buy anything.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  7. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll always have a fondness for clubs that have American ties (why I follow Leeds). With the stand finally being built they seem to be well positioned to be a forever Championship+ club, potentially bottom half of the table Prem side.

    Yup. They've built for this though. Bielsa alone will see them stay up .... But I fully expect them to finish well.

    Oh ... And uh, Macclesfield wound up
     
    Chesco United repped this.
  8. Billy Beane owns 5% of AZ Alkmaar:)
     
    HailtotheKing repped this.
  9. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    #27634 M, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020

    They were relegated from the old First Division in the late 60's and dropped to the fourth level in the mid '90's right before the Al Fayed takeover.

    Never been to Harrods despite living relatively near London for quite a while!
     
    bigredfutbol repped this.
  10. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Thats now around 60 clubs you've told us are only in the Premier Leauge because of the money. In fact you've said this so often about so many clubs that perhaps they are all fookin loaded no? :)
     
  11. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    The last time the 3 'canon fodder/go straight back down' clubs were all relegated the year after being promoted was 1998! Perhaps promotion isn't so pointless after all!? Maybe just maybe there is a small shimmer of hope that you can go up and stay up!?
     
    Chesco United repped this.
  12. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    indeed ... And that Altidore dude was all right there (wish he'd have stayed), and Johansson followed suit. Ernie Stewart did a good job ad TD too!
     
  13. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We've shown the trends, shown the widening gap, shown the clubs effectively navigating and creating an in-between class, and so on

    but sure, stick to this one line.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  14. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    The FACT is that the last time the 3 promoted clubs all struggled and went back down the following year was 1998............thats 22 years ago!! Somewhat suggests that getting promoted is WELL worth your while wouldn't you say! :-D.

    Current Premier League clubs that have been promoted into the Premier League:-

    Leicester City
    Newcastle
    Wolves
    Crystal Palace
    Aston Villa
    Burnley
    Man City
    Leeds Utd
    Southampton
    Brighton
    Sheff Utd
    West Ham
    Fulham
    West Brom

    Look at all that (sure to be relegated this year) cannon fodder, can't see any of those finishing in the top half of the table, bet they all wished they were in the Championship with Sheff Wed right now.
     
  15. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Your point would have been a lot stronger if you hadn't included teams like Newcastle, Aston Villa, and West Ham, all teams that have long histories of being top flight teams that haven't spent more that one consecutive season in the second level in the EPL era. And your inclusion of Man City is completely ridiculous, given that its been almost 20 years since they appeared in the EPL and are one of the biggest 20(??) clubs in the world. Given that only 6 clubs have never been relegated is it really surprising that 10 of the 14 the clubs would be promoted clubs without a long top-flight history?

    But then based on your logic last season you're probably expecting Spurs to battle against relegation and both Manchester clubs to finish midtable, considering that's where they are now.
     
    Chesco United, Elninho and HailtotheKing repped this.
  16. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The FACT is that you just responded by blurting out the same line, again.

    Norwich
    Fulham, Cardiff
    Hull, Middlesbrough
    Norwich
    Burnley, QPR

    Last 5 seasons we've seen 8 of 15 newly promoted teams go straight back down. OVER HALF of the newly promoted teams immediately got relegated.

    Cardiff
    Reading
    -
    Blackpool
    Burnley

    That's the 5 years prior, covering the last decade of relegations. Only once in the last decade have ALL three teams avoided being sent right back down.

    LIKE WE SAID ... the money is increasing the gap and issue with relegation. That's not even getting into the repeat offender clubs (that in-between class we've spoken about and are included in your list of examples) that take up both promotion and relegation slots in this time period.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  17. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Half? half! but they are ALL supposed to be 'cannon fodder' no? All of the FOURTEEN clubs listed! When Leicester were promoted I was told by people on here they were 'cannon fodder', they would have been better to stay in a lower league (where they belong? lol), after Leicester, Wolves, Sheff Utd etc are we still supposed to believe this bollox?

    Would it really make more sense that the 'top 3' clubs from the previous season to be 'more likely' to struggle than clubs coming up from a lower league? Is that really how its 'supposed' to be? I mean if that kind of thing was to happen then why bother 'building up' your club in the first place? 1998 since the same promoted teams happened to go down again - widening gap my ar*e!

    If clubs simply 'went straight back down' then what chance would promoted clubs have to build over a period of time? If what you claim is true then I'm pretty sure Wolves and Sheff Utd are definates for the drop (along with the three promoted teams) this year because they 'should' have been relegated last year no? I have a mate who is a Sheffield Wednesday fan and he is delighted to see Sheff Utd doing well in the Premier League (not), he is so happy that Wednesday are also rans in an inferior division where they're nice and 'safe' from relegation out of the Premier League (not). Poor old Wolves having to keep playing in Europe when they could be safely floating around the Championship instead! lol :-D

    Here is something for you to think about for a moment, 3 teams from 20 HAVE to be relegated, thats EIGHTEEN relegations in just 6 years, bearing this in mind just how many Premier League clubs are supposed to feel relegation is something they are never going to suffer? Bearing in mind the 'maths' how surprised are we really supposed to be exactly at the changing face of Premier League clubs?

    Pro/rel - exciting innit.
     
  18. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Aston Villa have just spent 3 seasons in a lower league, West Ham have spent 32 years of their 93 outside of the top division (pretty sure that will include more than one consecutive season at a time!), Blackburn Rovers have spent more seasons playing top flight football than West Ham, Sunderland are in League 1, they get better attendances than many Premier League clubs, whats your point? 10 of the 14 clubs are without a long top-flight history? Then you are jusr re-affirming what I'm saying! Same clubs all the time yet 10 current Premier League clubs are 'without a long top-flight history (your words)' I've seen Spurs fall out the top division, and Chelsea (twice), Man Utd, former European champions Nottingham Forest and yes former European Champions Aston Villa too! It all rather proves my point doesnt it?
     
  19. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And again you show you miss (or more likely, choose to ignore) the point. The game has changed in the last decade. The money difference between the top of the bottom of the EPL and more importantly, the bottom of the EPL and the Championship is orders of magnitude higher than its ever been. Claiming "well, Spurs were once relegated so anything could happen" is ignoring all the evidence being laid out in this thread.

    But, we've been here before with you and we'll likely be here again. You're a broken record that refuses to lake your blinders off and just repeats the same mantra over and over, like speaking it will make it true. Get back to me when you have something new to add to the conversation.
     
    HailtotheKing repped this.
  20. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    It hasn't bloody changed though has it! Are we seriously supposed to think that Liverpool are going to win the league one year and then with 90%+ of the same players the following year struggle against relegation!!?? Seriously? In 10, 15, 20, 30 years though who knows because the team will need to evolve! Just because you've known English football for 10 years you assume its not 'fluid' you think somehow things have changed? Wait until you've known it for as long as I have and you will see it certainly IS fluid, Nottingham Forest didn't go from European Champions to minor league in a year ffs it was 30 years of slow decline! You think Spurs are never going to be relegated ever again just because they are doing well now? What kind of daft thinking is that? I bet Sunderland wouldn't have imagined they would be 8th in the third league down in 2019 after finishing 7th in a 47,000 sold out every week, brand new stadium in 2001. I'm not sure Bournemouth would have imagined they would play 4 seasons of Premier League football when they narrowly avoided the FIFTH tier of English football in 2009! And that is a tiny football club that was getting 4 thousand fans every home game (including away supporters!), so don't tell me 'things are different' until 1. youve known English football as long as me or 2. until the same three clubs really do keep going up and down over a period of time!!
     
  21. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #27646 Paul Berry, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
    I'm just suggesting Leeds are investing like a team that wants to stay in the Premier League. They could even be a top 6 team again but they would need to find another investor.

    Let's put those clubs into an all-time Premier League table:

    7. Man City
    8. Newcastle
    9. Aston Villa
    10. West Ham
    11. Southampton
    13. Leeds Utd
    14. Leicester City
    17. Fulham
    19. Crystal Palace
    20. West Brom
    ‐--‐-------------
    34. Wolves
    35. Burnley
    39. Sheff Utd
    42. Brighton

    The last 4 are the new kids on the block, with Burnley and Sheffield United having yoyo tendencies.

    The top 20 teams they've usurped are:

    12. Blackburn
    15. Middlesbrough
    16. Sunderland
    18. Bolton
     
  22. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    I see @Crawleybus is still the bloke down the boozer that you avoid at all costs
     
    HailtotheKing, JasonMa and jaykoz3 repped this.
  23. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #27648 Paul Berry, Sep 16, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2020
    I compared last season's Sportrac payrolls to league position as an indication as to how money talks.

    Payroll Team (Position) Difference
    > £100 Million
    1. Manchester United (3) -2
    2. Manchester City (2) +0
    3. Chelsea (4) -1
    4. Liverpool (1) +3
    5. Arsenal (8) -3
    < £100 million
    6. Tottenham (6) +0
    7. Everton (12) -5
    8. Crystal Palace (14) -6

    9. Leicester City (5) +4
    10. West Ham (16) -6
    11. Southampton (11) +0
    < £50 million
    12. Burnley (10) +2
    13. Wolverhampton (7) +6
    14. Watford (19) -5
    15. Newcastle (13) +2
    16. Aston Villa (17) -1
    17. Brighton (15) +2
    < £20 million
    18. Norwich (20) -2
    19. Sheffield United (9) +10
    20. Bournemouth (18) -2

    Just to explain, Manchester United had the highest payroll and came third, so they score -2. Leicester had the 9th biggest payroll and came 5th so they have a score of +4.


    Given the number of variables in how a team performs, there's a lot of correlation between spending and league position.

    Obviously Sheffield United and Wolves were the big over-performers and Watford the big losers, with Everton, Crystal Palace and West Ham at the dangerous end of mid- table.
     
  24. Placid Casual

    Placid Casual Member+

    Apr 2, 2004
    Bentley's Roof
    Ah. Yes Sportrac. That well known place to find non available wage bills....

    Useless data.
     
    M repped this.
  25. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You don't think that table reflects who the biggest and smallest spenders are?
     
    Chesco United repped this.

Share This Page