The All-Encompassing Pro/Rel Thread on Soccer in the USA

Discussion in 'Soccer in the USA' started by bigredfutbol, Mar 12, 2016.

  1. Can't wait to see them go down.
     
  2. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    West Ham v Watford is looking like a tasty relegation six-pointer, as is West Ham v Aston Villa on the last day. But if I had to bet on it I'd say that the current bottom three will be the three to go down. At the other end of the table, there's even more than usual to play for given Man City's possible European ban.
     
  3. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    To be honest, I don't really understand how sports holding companies work: I thought they were just LLCs for the owner to shield them from liability.

    Is SS&E's billions based on the valuation of the Spurs?
     
  4. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What I meant was that some clubs would react badly to MLS signing a player and unfairly assigning them to a particular club.

    If LA want Ronaldo and Ronaldo wants LA then MLS will help facilitate it. If MLS signs a player then allocates him to a particular club for marketing reasons other clubs may object.
     
  5. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ... but I thought "playing for playoff spots" just wasn't the same? Oh wait, selective application of principle, that's right.

    If Villa shows like they did this weekend it will be a dreadful match to watch regardless of what is at stake. And no, there being something at stake doesn't make shit soccer NOT shit soccer.

    Oh yeah, vast-overwhelming majority of it is. 1.8B was the last valuation. Though they got some pocket money from selling the WNBA Stars and the AHL Rampage to Las Vegas. They've still got the NBADL Austin Spurs under the banner too.

    5yrs ago the D-League franchises were in the 5-10M valuations ... I don't see them having dropped especially as the last few years they've become a type of "minor league baseball" type of attraction for celebrities and ownership groups.

    We know that the fee for a USL Championship team is 10M (IIRC). I'd say that SAFC's valuation would be more than that. For what it's worth transfermarkt has the squad valued at 5.5M (tops in USL).

    THIS ^

    There's a rather large distinction between the two and the facilitation absolutely SHOULD happen and is absolutely the correct decision. The signing/sending for market purposes yes, is shit.
     
  6. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Watching the League Two playoffs I commented multiple times that there were shining examples of why these teams were in League Two.
     
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  7. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Not sure what point you're trying to make.A fourth level playoff will feel like fourth level football.
     
  8. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That was my point, yes. I was agreeing with @HailtotheKing that just because it was a playoff game didn't mean the soccer wasn't still bad soccer at times (but enjoyable to watch).
     
  9. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    #27134 M, Jun 30, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020
    A playoff game with something that simply doesn't exist in US closed leagues - a promotion place. I don't know what that poster wrote, but for me it's having something really significant on the line that makes sport great. Pro/rel adds significance that simply doesn't exist in US closed leagues.
     
  10. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hummm so kind of a low bar when your defense is "at least we don't fix matches". Also a prime example of Whatabatoury". And for the record I would hope MLS isn't fixing matches I am not accusing them of doing that. And yes that's a problem in Italy, if you haven't been paying attention though Serie A is definitely the sick man of the four European Leagues partially because of constant accusations of match fixing that are hard to deny when we know it's happened in the past.

    So what's your point? That because Italy has a tradition of match fixing that goes back over 100 years MLS should be excused from manipulating the destination of players for marketing purposes? Going to have to draw me a road map to explain that one.

    (And yes for the record I do watch more Serie A games than MLS. Not entirely sure why I find it more interesting. Probably connected to the fact that my first exposure to club football was in the mid 90's when Serie A was king. But I only watch as a neutral, would have major issues watching Serie A through a specific club because of the history of match fixing)

    They are absolutely fundamentally different. They are not the same thing.

    This is what I hope.

    But I want to be clear, your argument seems to be, "this was necessary then but MLS should no longer need to do this." I just want to clarify that if MLS went back to this again you would be

    I think I understand you I just don't think MLS has closed the door on this, and I believe that most if not all owners would bite their tongues because of the increased value it would bring to the league as a whole.

    Imagine a world where Ronaldo will only come to MLS if he gets to play in LA and MLS shifts to NIKE . NIKE comes to MLS execs and the deal is a good one and even better NIKE well rearrange their contract Cristiano so his cap number isn't that high and the Galaxy can actually put a good team around him, which hey is also good for the league.

    This scenario is plausible. And my expectation is the owners and fans would go along with it.
     
  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The non-Galaxy fans would certainly not go along with it and I don't think the Galaxy ones would to.
     
  12. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only part I have an issue with is Ronaldo's salary essentially being paid by Nike to keep his cap hit down.

    But I have no issue with Ronaldo saying "If I go to the U.S. I'll only play in LA" and I have no issue with Nike going to the league and showing them that getting Ronaldo and switching from Adidas to Nike would be a net benefit for the league.
     
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  13. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My hope is you are right. And if you are then it would show a shift in the thinking of fans.

    Fair enough, and obviously we are dealing with a continuum not a binary right or wrong decision.

    But from this discussion it does appear that people in here who broadly support MLS way expanding the sport also agree that MLS should not intervene in transfers now like they have in the past. Is that a fair summary?
     
  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I support NYC FC, who happen to play in MLS.

    I also support the growth and stability of professional soccer in the US and MLS is the vehicle for that.

    I don't support a situation where the league and/or sponsors favor one team over another.

    As a rule I don't agree with everything MLS does or how it's run but if you live in America, or anywhere else for that matter, there are worse things to worry about.
     
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  15. aperfectring

    aperfectring Member+

    Jul 13, 2011
    Hillsboro, OR
    Club:
    Portland Timbers
    I take offense with it, simply because Nike should push players they're paying for to play near their world HQ. Never mind that this happens to be quite close to the team I support. ;)
     
  16. An Unpaved Road

    An Unpaved Road Member+

    Mar 22, 2006
    Club:
    --other--
    Fila paying for moves to RSL is where it’s at.
     
  17. HailtotheKing

    HailtotheKing Member+

    San Antonio FC
    United States
    Dec 1, 2008
    TEXAS
    Club:
    San Antonio Scorpions FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's the selective application of things that I refer to all the time in this discussion. MUCH WORSE things happen in leagues all over the place. MLS is the only one crucified for anything it does (in regards to our conversation). EVERYTHING done by say .... Italy or Mexico or Russia or wherever is justified or explained away. Should MLS or US Soccer be the one though ...

    ... half of this discussion is about the perception of MLS. It isn't whataboutism when I'm pointing out the fact that those with shit perceptions of MLS are flat out ignoring or justifying away things that are just as damning to leagues they hold as soccer gold.

    The way the money is funneled to the top ... I'm not so sure.

    I would be what?
    I'm stating fact. MLS had/did need to do things. If someone can't see or understand that then they truly don't and never did understand the fragile ice soccer was on when MLS kicked off.


    I think I understand you I just don't think MLS has closed the door on this, and I believe that most if not all owners would bite their tongues because of the increased value it would bring to the league as a whole.

    Imagine a world where Ronaldo will only come to MLS if he gets to play in LA and MLS shifts to NIKE . NIKE comes to MLS execs and the deal is a good one and even better NIKE well rearrange their contract Cristiano so his cap number isn't that high and the Galaxy can actually put a good team around him, which hey is also good for the league.

    This scenario is plausible. And my expectation is the owners and fans would go along with it.[/QUOTE]

    I 100% second what @JasonMa replied to this
     
  18. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Supporters are not gonna be happy!!!!



    A Championship Level club going into Administration????

     
  19. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Went there with Chelsea a few seasons back, 'friendly' fans they weren't! :-D
     
  20. Crawleybus

    Crawleybus Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    But they're not 'playing for play-off' spots?? European qualification depends on final standings.
     
    M repped this.
  21. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Definition of Whataboutism: the technique or practice of responding to an accusation or difficult question by making a counteraccusation or raising a different issue.

    Me: Are you concerned that MLS, in order to make the entire league more marketable, will advantage certain clubs over others?

    You: Why don't you call out Serie A for match fixing?

    That is the definition of whataboutism, literally.

    I am not ignoring or justifying anything. By the way anytime you are using the pronoun "they" it sounds vague and to me is pretty damm close to a strawman argument.

    Don't use "they" give me specifics. In a perfect world use my own words, not what you think I think.

    And if you don't understand how a club paying it's own huge money to bring in a player is different than a league, helping a club to pay huge money than I don't know what else to say.

    At first yeah, we probably disagree after that but overall I agree there was a point where it was worth it. I don't think it's worth it now though.
     
  22. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Hard to see how there won't be a multitude of "minor league" teams going bankrupt all over the world. Administration/Chapter 11 may be the best outcome for many. Their main income stream has simply evaporated.
     
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  23. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well they are in Greece and Belgium. It's how they decide their league title and Euro spots.

    In Holland they have playoffs for Euro qualification.
     
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  24. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    How is that relevant to Aston Villa v Wolverhamption Wanderers?
     
  25. owian

    owian Member+

    Liverpool FC, San Diego Loyal
    May 17, 2002
    San Diego
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We are just at the start of this storm. My expectation is that world sport as we know it is completely "restructured" and European football starts to look a lot more like American sports. Guessing we'll have some form of pro/rel, at least in the domestic leagues, but probably will be different than what we know now.
     

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