The 2013 Table - Magic Numbers, Tragic Numbers & Other Fishy Figures [R]

Discussion in 'MLS: News & Analysis' started by Knave, Aug 23, 2013.

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  1. profiled

    profiled Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 7, 2000
    slightly north of a mile high
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    When you're simply listing numbers, sure, but when you use "rest" as any sort of meaningful number, you're bringing in something other then numbers, and cherry picking data.

    Is there any evidence to backup the idea that there is a correlation between more games and points gained per game? I mean, obviously RSL has had less rest up until this point, which would suggest otherwise.
     
  2. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    It'd be complicated to measure that, though it could be done. Plus, in MLS better teams are, in effect, "punished" with more games, and worse teams are "rewarded" with fewer games. There are exceptions to that (like DCU right now), but in general that's how it is: better teams end up in the CCL and surviving in the USOC.
     
  3. profiled

    profiled Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 7, 2000
    slightly north of a mile high
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I agree, I wasn't trying to be an argumentative prick, I just would like to know if there's actually any evidence to back up the idea that having more games at the end really plays out to any quantifiable disadvantage, rather then just some generalized "assumption" that teams with more games struggle.

    I don't think any of the teams have a back breaking amount of games left, so I don't think it will come into play that much.

    I'd think the call-ups are much more likely to affect the outcome then a few midweek CCL games.

    There's also a ton to be said for having momentum to carry you into the playoffs, and those extra games can certainly help as well as hurt in that regard.

    LA had a lot of games last year going into the end of the year and they were picking up steam, not huffing and puffing come playoff time.
     
    Knave repped this.
  4. lurak

    lurak Member+

    Aug 24, 2007
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I thought someone did an analysis in the last couple of years of games played and final season finish which showed that teams who play a higher number of official matches usually fare worse in the table.
     
    BalanceUT repped this.
  5. edwardgr

    edwardgr Moderator
    Staff Member

    Mar 6, 2006
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I dunno Seattle has had some pretty heavy late summer/fall schedules, and yet we have played our best soccer from August on over the last few years. We are doing so again this year without the same congestion. Pretty sure the same is true for LA over the last 3 seasons or so.
     
  6. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It wasn't that they performed worse in the table, it's that they fared worse in the playoffs. The #1 indicator of which team would win the first round playoff series was the team with the fewest games.. I think the Galaxy have destroyed that measure in the last few seasons though.
     
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  7. lurak

    lurak Member+

    Aug 24, 2007
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Thanks for the correction.
     
  8. evangel

    evangel Member+

    Apr 12, 2007
    So basically, if Montreal manages to take the Supporters Shield it will have been nothing short of epic given the kind of schedule they have for the next 2 months.
     
  9. profiled

    profiled Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 7, 2000
    slightly north of a mile high
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    I don't think we know if there's any true correlation between late season fixture congestion and on the field results.
     
  10. BalanceUT

    BalanceUT RSL and THFC!

    Oct 8, 2006
    Appalachia
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There was a good analysis showing that teams who played many games did badly in the playoffs. I don't know if it's been looked at for late regular season games. But, which position would you rather be in? One in which you averaged a bit over 4 days of rest between games or one in which you had nearly twice as much rest?
     
  11. profiled

    profiled Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 7, 2000
    slightly north of a mile high
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Depends on form, depends on what players are still getting used to working together, depends on which players are recovering and need game fitness. If i'd been struggling all year, and just rounding into form, i'd rather have more games.

    I think momentum has a lot more of an impact then a little fixture congestion.
     
  12. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Depends what you mean by momentum.. The analysis that was put out also looked at run of form and number of games was still more important.
     
  13. profiled

    profiled Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 7, 2000
    slightly north of a mile high
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    That was talking about playoff performance, I thought this discussion was about race to the SS?
     
  14. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ahhhh. I thought we were talking about playoffs still. In that case, you are correct. I know for the Sounders the players got used to the grind and tended to go on end of season runs once CCL started up.
     
  15. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Notes

    I'm saving it for tomorrow, except to say that CLB is now burnt toast.
     
    fuzzx and Sounders78 repped this.
  16. terrier

    terrier Member

    May 31, 2011
    Netherlands
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    The way things are going, Friday's RSL@SEA match may be, uh, dispositive with respect to the shield.

    Thanks again to Knave for keeping this thread up to date. I hope the points tomorrow's "Knave Bowl" are a soothing balm.
     
    Allez RSL repped this.
  17. Hachiko

    Hachiko The Akita on Big Soccer

    Jun 8, 2005
    Long Beach, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's going to take an Act of Madoka for anybody to catch RSL in the Shield race.
     
  18. Sounders78

    Sounders78 Member+

    Apr 20, 2009
    Olympia
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Even if Seattle lose to RSL they could still catch them due to the games in hand. If Seattle beat RSL, then they take over first with games in hand.
    (I am responding with no clue as to who or what Madoka is) :oops:
     
  19. Hachiko

    Hachiko The Akita on Big Soccer

    Jun 8, 2005
    Long Beach, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's my definition for an Act of God.
     
  20. BalanceUT

    BalanceUT RSL and THFC!

    Oct 8, 2006
    Appalachia
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm an RSL fan and I find this statement bizarre. Look, RSL plays at Seattle on Friday. There are 2 points separating the teams with Seattle having 2 games in hand. Games in hand are not gold, automatic advancement, etc. They are simply opportunity. While nobody should think they are worth 3 points each, they are also not worthless. Estimating them to be worth the team's PPG pace is pretty reasonable.

    Friday's game is definitely determinative relative to RSL's and Sounders' pursuit of the SS. RSL wins, and they have 5 point lead with Sounders having 2 games in hand. Sounders will need to play better than 2 points/game to catch RSL. Draw and things remain as they stand. Sounders win and it is very bad for RSL, as mentioned above. Sounders will have a one point lead and 2 games in hand.

    Winner of RSL-SEA is in the catbird seat.
     
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  21. TheBiff

    TheBiff Member+

    Apr 8, 2011
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    Ecuador
    [​IMG]
     
    Hachiko repped this.
  22. nlsanand

    nlsanand Member+

    May 31, 2007
    Toronto
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    I've checked, nothing situational in play re: chivas elimination right now. Basically, if they win, they're still in, no matter what the San Jose result. But it is quite close. I think it requires Colorado and LA to advance. Anyways, it will be nice to see the second official elimination.
     
  23. vividox

    vividox Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 10, 2005
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Columbus are barely not mathematically eliminated from the SS race. One such path to SS: Columbus wins out, DCU wins out, CHV wins out, TOR wins out, CHI wins out, NER wins out, RSL loses out, SEA loses out, LAG draws POR and then loses out, POR loses out, COL loses to DAL and SJE, DAL loses out, and then the rest of the games draw out. Several of the lower ranked teams' results could go a few different ways and they could be okay, but there isn't a lot of margin of error either. So, in all likelihood, one more week and Columbus will be out of the race. The crazy thing is, I don't think they can be eliminated by today's match-ups (I'm not 100% sure, but at a cursory glance none of the match-ups today look super-vital to Columbus' chances).
     
    Allez RSL repped this.
  24. Hachiko

    Hachiko The Akita on Big Soccer

    Jun 8, 2005
    Long Beach, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Bing.
     
  25. Hachiko

    Hachiko The Akita on Big Soccer

    Jun 8, 2005
    Long Beach, CA
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If I'm proven wrong, so be it because the higher being of hope said so. But right now, my guys won't catch your guys with the way we played last night.
     

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