Whatever you think of the playoff system, the league has repeatedly given its reason why they do it this way (i.e. conference championships in the playoffs). Agree or disagree, they think their reason makes sense. With respect to the numbers in the ever outstanding tables above, it is interesting that the addition of 2 teams has had such a dramatic effect on the playoff process this year. If there were only 8 getting to the post season, this playoff race would be comparatively dull for far more teams. I think there is a good argument that the bottom 4 teams actually don't make the playoffs, just the winners of the play-in game, but that isn't the league's view.
I agree with this -- actually made a similar point in this thread's initial post. But let me drive this point home. There's been virtually zero movement on this table since I started this thread. Code: [B][U] WK23 WK27[/U] 01 LAG 01 LAG 02 SEA 02 RSL 03 FCD 03 SEA 04 CMB 04 FCD 05 RSL 05 CMB 06 COL 06 PHI 07 SKC 07 SKC 08 PHI 08 COL ------------------ 09 HOU 09 DCU 10 DCU 10 HOU 11 NYR 11 POR 12 POR 12 NYR ------------------ 13 CHV 13 CHI 14 SJE 14 CHV 15 CHI 15 SJE 16 NER 16 TFC 17 TFC 17 NER 18 VAN 18 VAN[/B] There's some minor shuffling within each category, but it's the same top 8, the same middle 4, and the same bottom 6 since Week 23. Without those two "extra" spots, we'd be playing out a fairly boring end to this season. I don't know whether the league got this right or whether they are just getting lucky, but the changes made to the playoffs this year actually are succeeding in making this regular season exciting and meaningful. Perhaps the league looked at last year's playoff race (the one whose non-existence I detailed on the previous version of this thread) and realized changes were needed. With higher disparity (and we have higher disparity) and a larger league, you're likely to end up with a more bimodal table -- more teams at the top, more teams at the bottom, fewer teams in the middle. So the top teams secure their playoff berths early in the season. The bottom teams drop out of the playoff race early in the season. With only 8 spots, the middle tier teams are pushed out of the playoff race, which means there's no playoff race. The additional 2 spots means the middle tier teams still have hopes for a playoff berth. And it's mainly those teams that we've all been talking about on this thread for the last month.
That would be a very short-sighted strategy, in my opinion. Let's look at the current situation. Columbus is #1 in the East, Philly is #2 in the East, Kansas City is #3. Dallas is the #1 West team. Columbus so far this year has a 2-0 home win and a 2-0 home loss against Dallas. They have a 2-1 home win and a 1-0 away loss against Philadelphia. Against K.C., they have a home win and haven't played on the road yet. In other words, first or second gives them a winnable game at home, plus home field advantage, in the first (post-wildcard) round of the playoffs. Yes, Dallas is a better team than Kansas City, and that would be an advantage to the #2 spot. But it's not like the choice is L.A. versus Toronto; it's teams that are fairly close to each other in the standings and with pretty even actual records against Columbus. But there are plenty of advantages to the #1 spot as well. For example (again, assuming Knave's current table is the final table): 1) Columbus would play Dallas on Saturday, three days after Dallas had a win-or-go-home playoff game (possibly including overtime and/or penalties) against Houston. As #2 seed, Columbus would open the playoffs at a rested, fit Kansas City team on Sunday in Kansas City. In fact, as it happens, with CCL commitments, Dallas will have played five games in the two-and-a-half weeks leading up to the first round proper (Wed-Sat-Tue-Sat-Wed) with no breaks. Kansas City would only have two games in the same stretch. The return leg is on Wednesday, which would make seven games in three weeks for Dallas. 2) Not only that, but...in one game, anything could happen, and Houston and Dallas have played to a draw already this year. If Houston pulls off an upset, Columbus has a chance of opening against one of the weakest teams in the playoffs. 3) Columbus will have home field advantage in the second leg, which includes overtime and penalties--remember, Columbus and Dallas split the season series, so this is more than just a remote possibility. 4) Finally, and most importantly, you risk a lot more than you gain by slipping to #2. If Columbus is the #2 seed and Dallas beats the #1 seed, Columbus still needs to beat Dallas at home to advance, which they probably would have had to do anyway in the first round (unless they could steal three points at Dallas). But if Dallas loses, Columbus then has to win a one-game, winner-take-all conference final at Kansas City or Philadelphia to advance. Take it all together, and maybe you could argue that the #2 seed would still have an easier path to the conference final, but I don't think you can say they'd have an easier path to the MLS Cup.
You're not making my anticipation for these games any less than they already are. I can't wait for this Wednesday's home match and all of the playoff implications it holds. That, and I haven't gone to a game since the LA pasting in early August. So, yes, the fact there are 10 spots makes this more interesting for me.
One thing that you did not mention is the fact that NYR plays four of its six remaining games at home, while POR plays four of its six remaining games on the road. This is one reason why I find projections based on points per game at home and on the road to be more meaningful than overall points per game. Following that approach, NYR is actually sitting 9th right now, ahead of DCU, HOU, and POR (in that order).
It's a fair point, but I've never really been a fan of factoring in home and away performance into the projections (which should always be taken with a grain of salt anyway). First, when there are plenty of games remaining, factoring home and away performance is basically meaningless. (In fact, this has come up before.) Second, when there aren't many games left, the PPG projections themselves are suspect in their entirety. (This too, I think has come up before, but I don't recall when.) When you get down to just a handful of games flukes, anomalies and noise take over. The totally unexpected win isn't balanced out later by the totally unexpected loss, the strange result isn't submerged into a bunch of predictable results. One-off occurrences take over. Looking at home and away performance thus far you'd expect something like the following for NYR and POR remaining games: NYR: 1.41 PPG, for about 8 or 9 points, and 44 or 45 points total. POR: 1.00 PPG, for about 6 points, and 42 points total. Meanwhile, the usual PRJ I've got in the main table has both teams ending the season around 44 points. So what are we really talking about here? The NYR projection is effectively identical either way. The POR projection is less by 2 points, less than one odd result. The difference between the disaggregated projections for NYR and POR is at most one flukey game. It's all less than one game. For better or worse for their playoff prospects, both NYR and POR are perfectly capable of doing something unexpected in one of their 6 remaining games. And that's the only difference here: just one unexpected result in one game. What's that tell me? Same as I said two years ago. Disaggregating the home and away PPG numbers gives you a "false sense of accuracy" -- early on because there are so many games left, and later because there aren't enough left.
Just to be pedantic, RSL qualifies with a victory against NY plus one of the following: COL loss Houston tie or loss NY ties or beats Portland If RSL beats NY, 12 teams will have an MPP of 51+, which will be RSL's point total after that match. NY and Houston will have an MPP right at 51. They both play Portland, which has an MPP of 54. Of those three teams, a maximum of two can end up with an MPP of 51+. If NY and Portland tie, then NY can't beat RSL on points, and Portland's MPP will go from 54 to 52, so Portland will then have to win out to beat RSL's total. But Portland and Houston play each other later on, so one of those teams will end up with an MPP under 51, meaning 10 teams at 51+ MPP. If NY beats Portland, then Portland's MPP will be 51, as will Houston's. Now NY and one of Portland / Houston has to win out, which leads to KC having to win out, which leads to PHI having to win out, which leads to DC having to win out, which knocks out CLB. Basically, for RSL to not qualify after a win against NYRB, Houston would have to win out, Portland would have to win out except against Houston, the grouping of PHI / CLB / DC / KC would have to have things go just right, Colorado would only be allowed one slight slip, and then RSL would have to lose the tie-breaker. And the absolute worst Seattle can do right now, I believe, is end up in a 4-way tie for the final play-off spot.
given the overriding importance of your initial ("Second") note, I'm led to believe that aggregated or disaggregated (home and away) PPG methods are each analytical tools that are subject to giving any analyst a "false sense of accuracy" -- for the exact same reasons -- "early on because there are so many games left, and later because there aren't enough left". differentiating between the "4 teams fighting for the final two Wild Card" spots (or all the teams currently still with a realistic shot of grabbing a top 3 Eastern Conf spot) is likely going to come down to the "odd" (or unexpected) result anyway. (some or a few teams are going to "earn" above their PPG rate down the stretch and other teams will slip below the PPG rate over the final weeks of the season.)
A fair point too. It pays to be wary of all extrapolations of this sort as past performance is not a guarantee of future results. So, yeah, calculated distortions and all that ...
As I know you realize, all projections based on past performance should be taken with a grain of salt. To me, they are really nothing more than tools for comparing where teams stand right now when they have not all played the same number of games, and when they have played a different percentage of their games at home. As a fan of SKC, I came to favor distinguishing home and away performance this year for the obvious reason--it provided a rational basis for hope in the wake of the long and difficult road trip that began the season. At this point, I agree with tab5g that the race in the Eastern Conference "is likely going to come down to the 'odd' (or unexpected) result," rendering any projections effectively meaningless. They are still fun to calculate and discuss, though!
Weird reasoning. Your first link shows nothing except that if every team has a balanced home vs away schedule remaining then no reason to do a H vs A analysis. Well, duh... But when there are very few games left there is often a significant disparity in the home vs away schedule balances between teams. Since teams are much more likely to get points at home ignoring this factor because there is "noise" in the system makes no sense. Neglecting the strong H v A effect will just increase the error in the prediction model and hence make the predictions less likely to be accurate.
Nothing strange. Pretty ordinary statistics, in fact. (It doesn't have be balanced early in the season. Just balanced enough and with enough games remaining to override any statistical noise.) I think you missed the point about the small sample size at the end of the season when there are only a few games left. At that point the statistical noise (the unexpected result, the fact that sometimes you get heads 6 times in a row, etc.) very easily overrides the statistical trend or probable expectation. Flip a coin 6 times. You'd expect to get 3 heads and 3 tails. But sometimes you get heads 6 times in a row. With a bigger sample, that sort of noise will even out and you'll get 50/50 in the long run. But small samples are often very noisy. Same here when you have only a few games left. Maybe it's counter-intuitive to some, but that is the way the numbers work.
Not to point out the obvious, but what you just listed is not a "reason", it's just what they're doing. It's not actually the logic for doing it. It's like asking Bush "Why did you invade Iraq?" and his answer would be "It suited me to do it"
I realized that when looking at whether or not RSL would qualify with a win tonight (which just happened), I did not see that Portland played immediately afterward. If Portland ties or loses, I believe RSL is in the playoffs. As I said before, there are 12 teams with 51 MPP at this point including RSL. So if two drop out, RSL is in. Portland, with 54 MPP, plays both NY and Houston, who are on 51. If Portland does not win tonight, there is no set of results that will lead to having more than 10 teams with 51 points. Again, if NY wins out from here: NY at 51, SKC has an MPP of 52, PHI has an MPP of 54, one of Portland or Houston unable to catch RSL regardless of tonight's result. That means SKC has to win out, which leads to PHI with an MPP of 51, CLB 53, DC 51. CLB and DC play each other, as do PHI and DC, so at least one of those two teams would not be able to match RSL. So NY winning out is not a possible outcome to knock out RSL. Portland tying / losing tonight means that one of Portland / Houston will go sub-51 after they play each other, and since NY winning out to hit 51 means other teams go sub-51, RSL would be in with a Portland draw / loss. Hope that makes sense.
I'm not positive, but I think RSL is already in if they hold the 3-way tiebreaker vs NYR and HOU. I'll have to look further ...
Other teams could end up on 51, so it screws up the tiebreaks. So unless you want to do all the permutations, I wouldn't go down that road.
Yeah, I'm avoiding looking at tie-breakers this early because not only is there the possibility of HOU and NYR being at 51, but also some of SKC / PHI / DC / CLB. I'm okay with working out some of the more concrete possibilities, but working out every single tie-breaker is beyond me.
RSL owns the 3-way tie-breaker. Maybe they're in with an asterisk (some crazy 4-way tiebreaker in which HOU or NYR comes out ahead), but, in effect, they are in. Details later ...
... Failing Up-Date ... Code: [B][U] GP GR W D L PTS PPG PRJ MPP SE# T# M# WS# HD# AD# CNF[/U] [COLOR="Blue"]01 LAG 29 05 16 10 03 58 2.00 68 73 16 -- -- -- ---- ---- W[/COLOR] 02 RSL 28 06 15 06 07 51 1.82 62 69 12 33 01‡ -- ---- ---- W 03 SEA 29 05 14 09 06 51 1.76 60 66 09 30 01‡ -- ---- ---- W 04 FCD 29 05 13 07 09 46 1.59 54 61 04 25 06 -- ---- ---- W 05 CMB 29 05 11 08 10 41 1.41 48 56 -- 20 11 -- 0.80 0.81 E 06 PHI 28 06 09 12 07 39 1.39 47 57 -- 21 13 02 1.00 1.01 E 07 SKC 29 05 10 10 09 40 1.38 47 55 -- 19 12 01% 1.00 1.01 E 08 COL 30 04 10 11 09 41 1.37 46 53 -- 17 11 -- 1.00 1.02 W 09 HOU 30 04 09 12 09 39 1.30 44 51 -- 15 13 02 1.50 1.52 E 10 DCU 27 07 08 11 08 35 1.30 44 56 -- 20 17 06 1.43 1.44 E ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 11 POR 29 05 10 07 12 37 1.28 43 52 -- 16 15 04 1.60 1.61 W 12 NYR 29 05 07 15 07 36 1.24 42 51 -- 15 16 05 1.80 1.81 E 13 CHI 28 06 05 15 08 30 1.07 36 48 -- 12 22 11 2.50 2.51 E 14 CHV 30 04 07 11 12 32 1.07 36 44 -- 08 20 09 ---- ---- W 15 SJE 29 05 06 12 11 30 1.03 35 45 -- 09 22 11 ---- ---- W 16 TFC 30 04 06 12 12 30 1.00 34 42 -- 06 22 11 ---- ---- E 17 NER 29 05 05 12 12 27 0.93 32 42 -- 06 25 14 ---- ---- E 18 VAN 28 06 04 10 14 22 0.79 27 40 -- 04 30 19 ---- ---- W Current AD-Baseline: 45^ (Unchanged since the last update.) [/B] Code: [B]GP = Games Played | GR = Games Remaining | PPG = Points Per Game MPP = Max Points Possible = PTS + (3 x GR) SE# = SS Elimination Number = MPP - (1st Place PTS) + 1 M# = Magic Number = (11th Highest MPP) – PTS + 1 T# = Tragic Number = MPP – (10th Highest PTS) + 1 WS# = Wooden Spoon # = (18th Highest MPP) - PTS +1 HD# = Historical Despair Number = [URL="https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24203471&postcount=1"]Full explanation[/URL] AD# = Actual Despair Number = [URL="https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=24203471&postcount=1"]Full explanation[/URL] - Sorted by PPG, then most GR, then REVERSE alphabetical.* - Teams in [COLOR="SlateGray"]gray[/COLOR] have been eliminated from the playoffs. - Teams in [COLOR="Blue"]blue[/COLOR] have clinched a playoff spot. - Teams in [COLOR="SeaGreen"]green[/COLOR] are conference seeds. - Team in [COLOR="Brown"]brown[/COLOR] has won the Wooden Spoon. - Teams in [I]italics[/I] are conference champions.[/B] Asterisks * In the final weeks MLS tie-breakers will replace the final alphabetical sort. But until the final weeks it's seriously not worth the bother. ^ Set by DCU’s current 44 point (1.30 PPG) pace. % SKC holds the first tie-breaker over VAN. Therefore, despite a WS# of 1, they have escaped WS contention. ‡ See below for a full explanation. Notes Let’s cut to the chase: amazingly, despite all those crazy games, despite all those blown leads, once again almost nothing happened. DCU blew a two goal lead at home against one of the worst teams in the league and had to settle for a draw. (Seriously, DCU! How could you be so stupid? Step over here so I can dope slap you! Ugh!) NYR got trounced by one of the best teams in the league. POR couldn’t manage to hold onto a one goal lead and also had to settle for a draw. Terrible results all around. But because there were terrible results all around, nothing really changed. Everything remains pretty much where it was before these games (and, frankly, it remains pretty much as it was before the last round of games). The middle of the table is just plain stuck. Nobody seems capable of breaking from the pack. And everybody seems to be in a contest to find out who can fail least badly. Maybe we don’t have a playoff race after all. Unless you consider it a contest to see who can back their way into the playoffs in the least ignoble way possible. I wish I had some sort of snappy metaphor to describe the craziness of what’s happening with these teams. But I don’t. They all seem like they’re intent on drowning themselves in a shallow bathtub. But instead of actually drowning they’re all just drinking up the water making it that much more difficult for everyone to drown themselves! (Does that work? I don’t know, but it’s the best I’ve got!) So NYR, POR and DCU, I’m pretty sure none of you deserve it, but you got thrown a lifeline for another week. Maybe you should use that lifeline to help yourselves instead of employing it as just another prop in this failed series of suicide attempts. What else? No SS for DCU. And SJE’s draw means it’s now dropped beyond the point of mathematical return on the despair numbers – meaning see you next year SJE. And there’s the issue of RSL and SEA and whether they’ve clinched. I’d like to think that RSL has clinched and that SEA has not. I can almost prove both of these, but without going through the full range of tiebreaking scenarios (meaning 4 and 5 way scenarios) I can’t give a 100% definite answer. Let’s start with SEA. SEA has 51 points. There are only 12 teams remaining that can match or exceed those 51 points. Of those, the two at the bottom, whose MPP is 51, are HOU and NYR. Let’s say SEA loses the rest of its games and ends the season at 51 points, and that both NYR and HOU win out and end the season at 51 points. Would SEA beat HOU and NYR on a 3-way head to head tiebreaker? If it does, then SEA would be guaranteed to be in the top 10, and hence in the playoffs. The answer is no. Code: [B][U] W D L PTS[/U] HOU 1 3 0 6 NYR 1 2 1 5 SEA 1 1 2 4[/B] SEA loses on the three-way tie-breaker, which suggests that they do, in fact, need that 1 additional point to clinch. But is there a 4 way scenario in which SEA would come out on top, or at least within the top 10? Maybe. RSL is a bit different. They’re in the same 51 point situation as SEA. Under the same scenario, would they beat HOU and NYR in a 3-way head to head tiebreaker? Yes. Code: [B][U] W D L PTS[/U] RSL 2 1 1 7 HOU 1 3 0 6 NYR 0 2 2 2[/B] RSL wins this 3-way tiebreaker, which suggests that they’ve already clinched. But is there a 4 way scenario in which RSL would come out on the bottom, or at least below the top 10? Maybe. (And I pity the fool who attempts to figure out all the 4 (and 5!) way scenarios.) Lastly, I've been saying, just you wait and see, these next games are finally going to bring some clarity to the middle of the table. It's not happening. So I give up! I'm telling you right now, this weekend we're going to see NYR draw with POR (because apparently neither of those teams can win a game when they need to!), and in their respective games DCU and HOU will draw as well. That way nothing will change, and that seems to be the way the MLS world works these days.
SEA and RSL have clinched, by GreatGonzo's logic, which I have double-checked and looks legit. 51-point tiebreakers don't matter, as there is no possibility of more than 10 teams at 51 or higher. POR vs. HOU drops at least one of those two below 51 MPP, and NY winning out sets off a chain reaction that makes it certain that at least one of CLB, SKC, PHI, or DCU finishes below 51.
Can't believe the results last night. I guess no one wants to take the 3 spots in the East and the 2 wildcards left. Oh well, I am completely ok with backing into the playoffs if that is what its called. After watching how the bottom teams have fared in the playoffs the last few years, anything can happen once they start.
with so many ties this season and 10 of 18 teams making the playoffs, the league is collectively doing their best to produce a mediocre (yet dramatic in that not-really-drowning-in-a-shallow-bath-tub kind of way) "playoff race." there's drama in the mediocrity (in terms of seeing how the league parity initiatives can really bunch up the "mid-table" teams and make them all look like losers), and those potential wild card teams all appear to be doing what they can to get that PPG cutoff number as low (or as close to 1.00) as possible by season's end.
Thanks to Portland's schedule, I think I've figured out that the most points an 11th place finisher can possibly attain is 49. I think I've also found a scenario where SKC gets to 49 points and is that 11th place finisher. But mostly, I really think that I need to back away from this thread and do something more useful with my day.
but somebody needs to tell us the possible least number of points that can be achieved by a potential 10th place finisher this season.
I started working through the scenarios from GreatGonzo and ThreeApples late last night. And then I realized I'd be up half the night if I really wanted to check and double check everything to make sure there isn't any possible way it could be wrong. So I went to bed. From what I did do, I think they look right. Maybe RSL and SEA truly have clinched. But I think I might be better off just forgetting that I ever saw that stuff and hopefully it'll all be rendered moot soon enough.