I was all set to give a point-to-point reply to this post until I saw that last sentence. If your understanding of refereeing is as flawed as your apples-to-oranges comparison, there's no use continuing the discussion.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& While I agree with this statement in general, it's not going to stop me from being absolutely furious about a certain referee's poor handling of a certain Chicago keeper's attempt to injure Jaime Moreno during a dead ball situation.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& Do you really think that helps fix this problem somehow? I sure don't.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& You realize this is just a summary of the conference call right? The substance of the discussion dealt with the specifics of identifying and diffusing the situation.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& No question that should have been a straight red. However, the incessant bashing of referees, especially on our board, has become tiresome. We're making an art form of it at this point.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& Wow - someone actually can admit to that? I'm impressed.
I always check the referee posting before the starting 22. They are that important. Shouldn't be that way, but in MLS it is. They decide too many matches. Having said that, Mr. Vaughn called a fine match last night, to my surprise, the Boswell thing notwithstanding. And I'm still shocky from Mr. Kennedy's good form the week before v. KC. He has a long history of helping DC lose, but we managed that by ourselves last week.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& Besides pointing out the irony of having 4 pages of Terry Vaughn-bashing, only to have it end with one post-match post of "he did a good job" and no other complaints, I wanted to respond to this point. I was in the same room as BillF when Sandra Hunt made her comments. The Thornton incident is definitely on USSF/MLS's radar, as it was the only specific incident referred to during the instruction without accompanying video. Hunt basically went as far to say that not only was the referee wrong for not issuing a red card, but his bigger mistake was not being prepared for the situation, knowing Thornton's history. The conference call notes that Lisa has posted are a public summary of what was discussed among all MLS officials. You can bet that it was made clear, in no uncertain terms, that the incident should have been a red card and that a repeat performance by any MLS referee will not be tolerated.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& Vaughn has more than earned our scorn. I am glad to see that his form is on the upswing. Hopefully we will see some difference from the referee corps, but I'll settle for some consistency. Benefit goes to the attacker rule was really a huge success among referees worldwide, wouldn't you say? PS: earlier I made mention of the abuse that telefutura announcers were heaping on Stott for his performance in Houston at Guat v So Africa. Well today I saw a Guate ref really suck and the univision announcers were very circumspect. Racism? GM
As the usual thread starter, I was about to chime in with exactly the same post. Both Vaughn and Kennedy, two of the more reviled referees for DC United fans, called pretty fair games for both teams their last times out. The same can't be said for others. Re the Thornton Incident...Has Toledo (I think it was) gotten any more games yet? I haven't seen him in the listings recently and haven't perused the database in a while. Thx, Jay!
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& Well, speaking only for myself, this is the first I've been online in any fashion at all since the match. But you're right that poor performance by a referee tends to bring out tons of complaints while solid performance tends to bring out few commendations. Part of that is just the way people are -- people are more apt to make a complaint about bad service at a restaurant than they are to write a letter speaking well about good service, etc. And part of it is the role of referees: in a well-played game officiated by a good referee, the fan ideally wouldn't walk away from the match with any impression of the referees at all, positive *or* negative (because they weren't noticed, because their impact on the game was minimal, because it wasn't necessary for their impact to be larger). I'm not saying that's fair; just that that's bound to be the way it is for referees. I'm sure I'm not telling you something you don't already know. I understand what you're saying. It's just that it's hard for me to take it seriously. How could it be otherwise, when nobody was surprised when Thornton did it? It's been a problem for years, everyone has known it's been a problem for years, nobody was surprised when it happened; and yet the situation was mishandled. Put another way: what's different now? Why should I believe things will be handled better in the future than they have in the past, given that we already knew then everything that we know now? Why should those words be taken seriously when they're based upon an understanding of Thornton that everyone had before that anyway? It would be illogical to take it seriously until it comes up again (which it will) and there's some evidence that the referees are handling it well.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& It's the job of the referee to not be noticed. If the story of a game hinges on referee performance then the ref should be excoriated publicly.
I have no real complaints about the officiating against San Jose - with the possible exception of Danny Califf getting away with too much early in the game. I wouldn't have argued with an earlier card that would either have prevented his second-half mugging on Freddy Adu or would have caused that foul to be a second yellow. San Jose (DeRosario being the exception) was so sluggish attacking the ball that there were rarely as many tough 50-50 tackles with borderline fouls to call. Most of the fouls in this game were the result of frustration or were "clear, honest" fouls made for tactical reasons. Not too many surreptitious ones or nasty fouls that force a ref to choose between a simple foul or a card. The game flowed really well, without too much whistle-happiness. I would give the ref an A- or an A. What do you say we start making the ref thread a poll thread and start grading them (on that day's performance only - not on past history). That might help us realize if we overcompensate in our criticism of a ref for a single bad call?
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& No, it's the job of the referee to officiate the match. If that involves being noticed, so be it. What you've described is a WWF referee.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& In the context of a well-played match (where the referee doesn't have fights to break up, hideous fouls to call, etc.), you're right. In fact, I already said so -- that was the very next thing I said, right after where you stopped quoting me.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& I'll get back to you when I can, Claymore
I post it every time people complain about the level of refereering, but... Be patient. Look how far MLS' level of play has come in the past ten years. For the most part, guys in their 20s now grew up with better training and a professional league to attend and professional players to model themselves after than did guys in their 30s. But guys and gals in their 20s are only starting to get to the point where they may be involved in officiating MLS matches. And as they become more and more involved, and as they move into their 30s (the age when more of them will be running middles in MLS), the matches will be better officiated. And as for the Thornton-Moreno incident, I think Toledo definitely got it wrong. But, speaking from experience of being absolutely reamed (and deserving it) a few years back by an assessor after blowing a call in a State Cup match, I can't imagine what kind of assessment Toledo, a high profile ref in a much more high profile match than any youth competition, received. To say he got it wrong is completely correct; to say that MLS/USSF doesn't care or won't take proper action is wrong. And that said, I think most of the vitriol launched at Vaughn on these boards stems from the penalty last year he called for the Crew when Hedjuk fell after a slight push from Prideaux. Did Vaughn buy an embellishment from Hedjuk? Yeah, he did. But what was Prideaux doing even thinking about putting his hands on Hedjuk's back in a position where Hedjuk was of little danger? As a DC fan I thought Vaughn blew it and should have been strung up by his thumbs and made to watch that awful American Teen Soccer show (or whatever it's called) on FSC. But as a ref, I have respect for Vaughn, as I think overall he calls a fair game, as he did on Friday.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& Well, we've been talking about USSF; MLS is a different issue. But as far as MLS is concerned, if they cared, then you'd naively think they'd hand down a hefty fine or suspension to Mr. Thornton, right? To send a message? https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=209738 MLS has already told us they don't care.
For those of you in Maryland (from the Maryland ref website): Please encourage anyone you know who would be interested in attending one of these upcoming beginners' classes. WE NEED ALL THE REFEREES WE CAN GET. Mike Tretick - Chancellor's Run RP - July 25, 27, 29, Aug 2, 4 6 - 9pm Pete Zilch - Kinder Park (in Severna Park) - July 29 6 - 9pm July 30 9am - 3pm; August 5 6 - 9pm; August 6 9am - 3pm Larry Mittleman - Bauer Drive (Mont. County) August 1, 3, 8, 10, 15, 17 7 - 10pm AND WEEKEND COURSE August 6 and 13 9am - 5pm They should register on the Maryland Soccer Referees Website: http://www.marylandsoccer.com/referees/class2.html#entry clinics
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& Bootsy - Entirely correct. I meant to have typed only USSF. I know from a referee and assessor standpoint that such an issue would definitely be rasied in the post-game assessment, which is handled by USSF assessors.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& I understand your skepticism, but here's two things to keep in mind: 1) That match was assessed by Dave McKee, USSF's National Director of Assessment. You can be assured he was not pleased with what happened. 2) I'll give you one guess at how many MLS matches the referee in question, Toledo, has had the whistle for since June 15th. MLS may have not dealt with the incident, because MLS doesn't like to discipline its "star" players. But, other than having a referee who got the call right the first time, USSF has done everything in its power to make sure it doesn't happen again. Remember, MLS can do things publicly, USSF, because of the nature of the process, deals mostly behind closed doors. Because of that, it's sometimes difficult to see when USSF is getting things right.
Re: Terry Vaughn :: DC United vs. The ______ ClashQuakes :: Referee Thread :: [R] [N& So ........... open the doors and let the sun shine in! GM
Guys, we need to keep something else in mind, namely and to whit, visible behavior. Have you watched the highlights of the Chicago games lately? In every single match, every single goal scored against Chicago has featured a player chasing the ball into Thornton's net. No joke. Every single one. Thornton is a marked man, and everybody knows it. All he has to do to get tossed after a goal is blink. Yes, Toledo blew the call. Yes, he's paying for it by not getting any more MLS games. And YES, every player on every team is now baiting Thornton after goals, because they know he'll get tossed if he touches them. Justice has prevailed, after a fashion. It's just not always as dramatic or as emphatic as we'd like it. I'm going to actually go out on a limb here and state that I think the reffing has actually been significantly better, on the whole, this year. Sure, there's still room for improvement (acres, miles, countries, no GALAXIES worth of room), but there have been far fewer egregiously bad games this year. And this is coming from a guy who thinks that all referees, by definition, should be strung up naked by their thumbs and flayed alive. On my good days. You don't want to know what I'd do to referees on my bad days. I've got more respect for witch doctors than referees. At least you can use a witch doctor as a punchline in a bad joke.