Supporter's Shield. Does anyone care?

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by rymannryan, Aug 28, 2002.

  1. rymannryan

    rymannryan New Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    N.N., Virginia
    I really wish that people gave a damn about the Supporter's Shield. It would be nice to see San Jose, Dallas, and LA's players saying, "I really want to get the Supporter's Shield." Or "We're going to give it our all to win the Supporter's Shield." Teams want first place for the overall homefield advantage. (I think there needs to be a new home and hom playoff series like the one in Europe but that's another issue.) I wonder if there is any extra incentive to try to win it. A good one would be a big cash bonus.

    I just wonder if any fans care about the shield and what they think could be done to make it a trophy that people are truly honored to win.
     
    henryo repped this.
  2. jmeissen0

    jmeissen0 New Member

    Mar 31, 2001
    page 1078
    i've read players say they want it in various newspaper articles
     
  3. anderson

    anderson Member+

    Feb 28, 2002
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's a great concept for a league with balanced schedules and no playoffs. But MLS has both unbalanced schedules and playoffs.

    The logic of rewarding the most points is to recognize the best team over the course of the season. That doesn't always happen when a league has uneven schedules because a strong team in a weak division has an unfair advantage. An unbalanced schedule means that finishing with the most points in the league doesn't necessarily mean you're the best team over the course of the season.

    In this year's MLS, for example, the East has been much weaker than the West. If there had been one strong team in the East, they would've run away with the award. Dallas is 7-1-1 against the East and had they been in the East they may have been able to easily beat out SJ or LA or whoever would win the West.

    Fans also have a hard time caring when the league has playoffs to determine the champion. Most leagues in South America have playoffs and people only care about the "liderato" in so far as it affects seeding or tie-breakers (no away goals in Latin America) for the playoffs. Everyone knows that you only "grill the meat" in the playoffs.
     
  4. rymannryan

    rymannryan New Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    N.N., Virginia
    That's a very good point. The uneven schedules never even crossed my mind.
     
  5. Northside Rovers

    Jan 28, 2000
    Austin TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I care.

    And Dallas owns the East.
     
  6. NICDT Coach

    NICDT Coach Member

    Jul 17, 2000
    Cd'A, Idaho
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I care.

    And LA owens the East as well.
     
  7. kebzach

    kebzach Member

    Dec 30, 2000
    Greenfield, WI
    I could care less.
     
  8. jlo

    jlo New Member

    May 18, 2000
    Baton Rouge, LA
    I care. To me it carries more weight than the MLS Cup (despite the unbalanced schedule that everyone talks about).
     
  9. hangthadj

    hangthadj Member+

    A.S. Roma
    Mar 27, 2001
    Beacon, NY
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    I care, I'd care a lot more if Columbus had a chance.
     
    THOMA GOL repped this.
  10. anderson

    anderson Member+

    Feb 28, 2002
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why does it not matter to you for purposes of this award that the league plays an unbalanced schedule? Honest question. Really. I'm an MLS fan who would ideally like to see the top team over the course of the year honored, but I don't understand how you can really have a meaningful award when teams play an unbalanced schedule (for the reasons that I outline above).
     
  11. rymannryan

    rymannryan New Member

    Aug 27, 2002
    N.N., Virginia
    I understand that and agree with you. I started this thred basically as wishful thinking.
     
  12. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Balanced schedule is bullcrap. It's a red herring. Did you play Chicago Fire or the Milwaukee Rampage in red? Did you play the Metros with or without Mathis? Did you play the Wizards when they all had Montezuma's revenge?

    When you're talking a 28 game season most of that comes out in the wash. The regular season points lead is just as meaningful as anything else.

    The mere fact of playing equal home and away derbies is absolutely statistically meaningless over the course of a six month MLS season. Especially one in a World Cup season with massive roster shifts.

    I've spent years doing statistical analysis on baseball stats (SABR work), and have also analyzed years of data on a local dart league. Purely matching up an equivalent number of games does matter in something like an NFL season with teams playing half as many games as there are teams, but in MLS, NHL, NBA, and MLB seasons that all comes out in the wash. Whoever finishes at the top at the end has earned the regular season title. Divisional mismatches notwithstanding.
     
    redinthemorning repped this.
  13. Northside Rovers

    Jan 28, 2000
    Austin TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You should have said this years ago and ended this unbalanced schedule argument. Think of all the time we could have saved.
     
  14. Franchise

    Franchise New Member

    Aug 21, 2002
    JSC, Houston, TX
    The Supporter's Shield really should get more attention. It shows the teams' abilities over the long term, rather than just a short period wherer one tean can get hot and win. The playoffs are fun to watch, but overemphasis on it can demean the regular season. For example, in basketball, the Lakers have a preseason until the playoffs, which takes away from the excitement of the games before that.
     
  15. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Where's the fun in that?
     
  16. jmeissen0

    jmeissen0 New Member

    Mar 31, 2001
    page 1078
    the supporter's shield's popularity will only grow as the more soccer fans we bring to this league as fans will want to attach to something a bit more "euro" (we will never get rid of them, we will just get the more involved... and we shouldn't try to get rid of them, they got money too)

    the shield will grow in emphasis and with the changes that look to take place next year for the playoffs, the mls cup will take on more emphasis... they can both continue to grow, there is no need for one to be the title

    sides, i want the fire to take the open cup, the shield and the mls cup... now that would be pretty freaking awesome... the domestic treble

    i don't believe any team has accomplished this yet, i know teams have won two of them at once, but not all three
     
  17. Les_Philling

    Les_Philling New Member

    Feb 3, 2000
    Ohio
    Yeah, considering how they started the home campaign this season, I lost interest early.
     
  18. Northside Rovers

    Jan 28, 2000
    Austin TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Gloryhound.
     
  19. anderson

    anderson Member+

    Feb 28, 2002
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Andy, I think it makes sense to group a few of your arguments for purposes of responsiveness. I don’t believe that I misrepresent any of your positions in doing so, but if you disagree, I assure you that it’s inadvertent and apologize in advance. Just point out the error(s) and I’ll respond accordingly.

    I think it's helpful to clarify what we’re trying to establish. The conclusion that I’m supporting is that recognizing the best soccer team over the course of a 28 game season requires a balanced schedule. The main argument that I cite in support of that conclusion is that without a balanced schedule, one team can have a significant competitive advantage over its “top of the table” rivals because it plays weaker teams more often. I’ll address your arguments in the context of that conclusion and that supporting argument.

    If you’re arguing that looking at only head-to-head matchups among the top teams (i.e., excluding the weak teams) each season yields the same points winner as the overall table (i.e., including the weak teams), then you’ve got a great argument and you shouldn’t bother with the rest of this post. I’m more than happy to admit that I’m wrong and that I’ve learned something new today. Seriously. If that’s what you’re saying, do you have the tables for MLS since 96? That would be interesting.

    If not, then...

    You list several red herring-type arguments - color of uni’s, injuries to particular players, random but arguably meaningful disturbances to an entire team, etc. The fact that these issues are red herrings and may come out in the wash over a 28 game season does not mean that playing an unbalanced schedule is a red herring or comes out in the wash over a 28 game season.

    Playing say six or eight more games against very weak teams than your nearest rival will give you a significant, non-random competitive advantage over that rival. That advantage would only wash out if your rival also plays a similar number of games against similarly weak opponents whom you do not play as often. That may be the case in MLB, NHL, and NBA scheduling with 80+ or 160 games. That’s not the case in the 28 game MLS set up.

    You may be right when you’re looking at 160 or 80 games, but that’s not what we’re looking at here. It’s not competitively meaningless when you play only 28 games. You can gain up to 24 more easy points than your rivals. In that context, if you get to play three or four of the weakest teams over six or eight more games than your rivals, then you have a very meaningful competitive advantage.

    Roster management in the fact of extraordinary disruptions (i.e., something beyond the average set of injuries that soccer teams everywhere have to manage every year) is a significant issue that perhaps deserves its own recognition. If we’re trying to reward the team that best manages extraordinary roster disruption (e.g., Chicago, SJ), then I think we may be looking at something altogether different than who’s the best team over the course of a season, but I‘m not sure it‘s critical to this argument.
     
    Mucky repped this.
  20. Beckhamcpt07

    Beckhamcpt07 Member

    Nov 16, 2001
    Amsterdam, the Netherlands
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Are you saying there is a Supporters Shield in the MLS or there needs to be?
     
  21. anderson

    anderson Member+

    Feb 28, 2002
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Doesn't the NHL reward the top points team in the regular season with the President's Trophy or something like that? I have a few friends who are die-hard St. Louis Blues fans (although that may be redundant from what I can tell), and they don't seem to care much about it. I think they're just so accustomed to the idea that the Stanley Cup is the only thing that really matters. Do most NHL fans take it seriously?

    Do we think that enough soccer fans in the US are familiar enough with the way they honor the top points team in most of Europe and a few places in Latin America (e.g., Argentina) for this type of award to become meaningful here? In most of the Americas, it's not a meaningful achievement beyond positioning for the playoffs.
     
  22. VioletCrown

    VioletCrown Member

    FC Dallas
    United States
    Aug 30, 2000
    Austin, Texas
    Club:
    Austin Aztex
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Welcome!;-)

    Yes, there is one. I'm sure someone will link in some useful link.
     
  23. Beckhamcpt07

    Beckhamcpt07 Member

    Nov 16, 2001
    Amsterdam, the Netherlands
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I did not know that.
     
  24. jmeissen0

    jmeissen0 New Member

    Mar 31, 2001
    page 1078
    2 things

    1. sports here haven't been much about the regular season title... having said that i love my blues and them getting the president's trophy... but the stanley cup is where the nhl is at

    2. soccer is, in many respects, built around the notion of many titles... league, country, fifa region, etc.... so developing the idea that there are multiple cups/trophies to go after each year won't be as hard as building the president's trophy into equal importance of the stanley cup

    hell we recognize that our counry plays for various tropheys and cups and what not... it's just ingrained and the system will pass on as soccer is further established in this country

    -jim
     
  25. jmeissen0

    jmeissen0 New Member

    Mar 31, 2001
    page 1078

    SAN JOSE... tell me you didn't just throw san jose in there on that... wtf are you thinking???


    SAN JOSE for extraordinary roster disruption???


    wtf
     

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