Actually, I said right at the beginning of my post that I didn't necessarily disagree with you. I was only giving my reading of Martin's post, which didn't seem inconsistent to me at all. So no, I'm not telling you that. Per Mertesacker didn't get called up solely because he was in danger of getting called up by another country, did he? Promising young player, yes, but Klinsi didn't call him up just to "claim" him for Germany. I don't think Mertesacker is a proper analog for Subotic.
Mertesacker was called up at 19 years to play for the German national team. It was almost 2 years before the World Cup, and Germany clearly needed to rebuild although they had some solid pros in the center (some familiar?). Knowing how high the bar is in Germany, and how steep the criticism for such things- Germany can call up a promising 19 year old, but the US (with our such storied soccer history vs. Germany's overall record can't? Less than 2 years after his call-up, Mertesacker played a huge role in Germany surprising semi-final run. So, yes, it is entirely possible that a 'less than 20 year old' can be sent on a National Team journey which can end in a successful place at the World Cup. We now have 3 years before the next World Cup. On depth alone, the kid's a prospect. He doesn't even have to be a starter in 2010. So, let me understand- 33 year old Jimmy Conrad will be a LOCK for back-up in 2010? What about Jay Demerit? He may not make it back to the Prem. in the next 3 years. Are MLSers Chad Marshall, Boswell or Parkhurst locks? We really don't know if ANY of these guys will be on the team And with the extra component of another country beating us to the punch- its a pretty easy decision to call him up for the Swiss game for a cup of coffee.
Not saying anything about jri, but reasonable people can disagree on this. Friedel's Accent accurately conveyed most of my thinking, mainly that we are not as desperate at central defender as we are at forward. Subotic also only has a handful of games with the first team, which is also a factor for me. And my opinion is that if Subotic wishes to play for Serbia, then he should play for Serbia. Finally, we have a perfectly good venue to test Subotic -- the Olympic team. I think this will become the proving ground for all of the under 23s who are not yet established players (basically everyone but Spector, Altidore, Feilhaber and Bradley). And that's fine. As to Mertesacker, he wasn't the only 19 year-old getting time in the Bundesliga. But Klinsman advanced him up the line early, as Arena did with Donovan and Convey, because he saw something special in him. Since few of us have seen him play, we have no idea whether Subotic (considering Rongen's dismissal of him) warrants such treatment.
In my view, the serious contenders for the U-23 team fall into three buckets: (1) those that are already part of the senior team (Bradley, Feilhaber and Spector), (2) those that are being evaluated as long-range prospects for the seniors and as serious contenders for the U-23 team (Nguyen, Davies, Hill, Kljestan, Wynne and Zizzo) and (3) those that are serious contenders for the U-23 team but not quite yet considered long-range prospects for the senior team. I would add the following players to the second bucket: Altidore, Freeman, Edu, Adu, Holden and Rogers. In my view, each of these guys is due for a call-up, and Altidore probably even belongs in the first bucket. For me, Subotic is in the third bucket, along with: Harrington, Sturgis, Alvarez, Barrett and Christman. Continued strong club performances by any of the guys in the third bucket (including Subotic) would warrant a move to the second bucket and a call-up with the senior team. (Note- Gaven seems to have been in the second bucket prior to Copa, but he's not even in the third bucket for me now. Other noteworthy guys who don't quite make the third bucket for me include Szetela and Ianni.)
I think Szetela is quickly approaching your second bucket. I have absolutely no idea why Danny O'Rourke continues to get starts over this guy at Columbus. It baffles me; when I personally compare the two's performances, even while playing for Columbus, there is no competition.
Ianni can be very good and should be given a run. Granted, stats aren't everything but Houston allowed 16 goals in MLS while KC (with Conrad, Garcia and Zavagnin) has allowed 33. You'd think, at some point, Robinson and Ianni may start getting some love.
Interesting. Being in Columbus, you no doubt see more of him than I do. I currently have him missing out on the U-23 Olympic qualifying team. Here's my current depth chart for midfielders, with the top 7 making the team (roster should be 20 players): Feilhaber, Benny M 01/19/85 Derby Bradley, Michael M 07/31/87 H’veen Adu, Freddy M/F 06/02/89 MLS Edu, Maurice M 04/18/86 MLS Kljestan, Sacha M 09/09/85 MLS Holden, Stuart M 08/01/85 MLS Rogers, Robbie M 05/12/87 MLS Zizzo, Sal M 04/03/87 Hannover Nguyen, Lee M 10/07/86 PSV Szetela, Danny M 06/17/87 MLS Gaven, Eddie M/F 08/25/86 MLS Dalby, Greg M 11/03/85 None
Martin- more and more of our players develop overseas. Its impossible for a national team coach to watch them as closely as US player, or even see them at all in some cases. When a young player makes a big jump in performance- if they are in Europe, you are only going to gather that by context clues. Its a mistake for the US team (as they did with Demerit) to penalize a player because our coaches can't make it over there. We need to use context clues a bit more, and be a bit intelligent about this. Otherwise, we risk losing players....when they have dual chances to play for National teams. In the case of the Swiss friendly, its a double negative in some ways- first, you want to drag 'upcoming' MLS players over the Switzerland to see how they'll do (which is a short-turn around, and not so good for them when they come back to US)...less than adaquate conditions for a 'trial'. What makes MORE sense is to use a Swiss friendly 3 years before a WC to look at your upcoming European talent. Subotic is only 3 hours away! Given you likely arent' going to have a chance for a good 1/2 year, why not? BTW- the JRI is cute. You seem to like to pound that in the ground, so goody to you!
With your starters I'm assuming you must be thinking of Adu and Kljestan as left and right midfielders respectively since otherwise you have 5 natural Center Mids and just two players who play on the flanks day-to-day in Holden and Rogers, right? Not arguing, just asking.
I'm assuming that Kljestan will get some run on the right. His versatility, i.e., ability to play in the center or on the right, will be key to his making the squad, especially with a 20-man roster. Rogers on the left, Holden on either side. I'm assuming that Adu will play as a withdrawn forward or CAM, whatever you want to call it. He's somewhere between a forward and a midfielder. Hill and Alvarez (currently among my top four forwards, in part due to their versatility) would be available as mids as well. That's about as clear as mud, I assume. To clarify a little, my 11 attacking players (to go with 7 defenders and two keepers) would be: Altidore, Davies, Hill, Alvarez, Adu, Feilhaber, Bradley, Edu, Kljestan, Holden and Rogers. Several of those guys can play multiple positions. For the life of me, I can't see Szetela getting into that mix (much as I like him as a player). (OK, thread-jack over.)
Nonsense, Bradley can get access to video easily and I assume he does. I assume he has seen Neven play and has formed an opinion. "Context clues" are just a way for you to think that you can judge a player you haven't seen. Secondly, the so-called context clues here are less than overwhelming. First, Kicker ratings are a joke. Second, it's only been a few games. There simply isn't enough -- at this point -- to indicate that Neven should be anything more than an Olympic Team hopeful. Once again, if Bradley is interested in a player, he will watch him play. As Arena did. "Context clues" don't go very far in helping this decision. As far as I know, no mistake was made with Demerit -- Demerit is a good player, a contender for the USMNT now, but I doubt he would have made any kind of a difference at the World Cup, which is the definition of a mistake in my book. This is a complete red herring BECAUSE we have plenty of central defenders in Europe and don't have to drag any central defenders over from MLS for these games. It's only the players that Bradley thinks can't be replaced by Euros that came to the Sweden game -- not a central defender among them. And just to be clear, if Bradley wants to call Neven into camp and let him hang out like Arena did with Feilhaber in Scotland, that's fine with me. I don't know enough to criticize either way. There are lots of Americans within 3 hours, while Subotic appears more promising than most, I, like you, haven't seen enough of him to judge whether he warrants this look. There is nothing cute about a sock puppet.
Uh, it is easy to get video on all BL2 matches? Uh, ok. 'Context clues' include everything that is not seeing a guy live. Its including other peoples opinions (do I need to pull out the quote where Sven Goren Erikkson admitted he signed 2-3 players he had never even seen play for Man. City- based on other people's opinion's?). In the modern soccer world, you don't rely on perfect information, and you should know that. Hell, watching a guy for 1 or 2 games IS NOT perfect information. You should know that. A US National Team coach often can not watch a guy playing in BL2 LIVE for multiple games. So the whole exercise will be an educated guess anyway. Personally, I see no point in dragging Bocanegra or Gooch to every friendly. We know what they can do. They have played together frequently. We are going to ask them to travel around the world to represent our country over the next couple years. They will log significant miles and significant games. Why do you want to help burn them out over meaningless friendlies? Now's the time you blood new players (let's see more Simek and Demerit) and even the youngest. Not rack up miles on existing players at every turn
If it were easy, everybody would do it. Whatever, not interesting is definition games, seeing a player play on tape is an excellent source in my view and not equivalent to the rest of your "context clues". As to other people's opinions, this only works if (1) there is no bias (e.g. a club coach talking about his player), (2) they know the standard invovled (e.g. a club coach is familiar with the USMNT player pool and (3) the person has good judgment. [I think Ericson never saw the players LIVE, which is a different thing] LIVE is a luxury -- what I expect is that the National Team coach will watch a lot of video. Other than a crazy desire to ruin Bocanegra and Gooch, I would want to play them in European friendlies for a few reasons: 1. Neither is a lock to start and should have opportunities to demonstrate that they should be starters; 2. build cohesion; and 3. allow meaningful evaluation of new players by providing some consistency and base so the USMNT is competitive in these friendlies. Your argument has a number of red herrings. First, Simek plays right back, so his inclusion or exclusion is irrelevant to Subotnic. Second, I agree that Demerit should get some more time, but once again this issue is irrelevant to Subotnic as Demerit can get more time and starts, regardless of whether Subotnic is called in or not. Finally, I am not advocating sending Boca and Gooch back to the US (except maybe for a high profile friendly like Brazil), so the miles they will log will not be exceptional. In summary, you are free to have a different opinion. But mine is that, absent seeing Subotnic play and thinking that this guy is something special, which I haven't done, four Bundesliga 2 games, even successful one, doesn't indicate to me that this guy is the type of near-can't-miss prospects like Convey and Donovan and Feilhaber were that justifies bringing Subotnic in at this stage. Based on what I know, the Olympic team process is a good proving ground for him.