Subjective overrated players

I meant with being big match winners.

I quote myself and pay attention to the emboldened detail

@Jaweirdo @Edhardy

 

Suarez was also sensational, I would probably give him my vote as he won every long ball into the box. Terrorized the Real Madrid central defense.

 

Got to be honest I watched more of the Man City vs Liverpool game (not as big a game but I am English and they were on at the same time!).

I did see the first goal before that though, and the others on a video afterwards so I can just add that the first goal was really incisive and top notch, with Sergi Roberto playing a nice part (from what I've seen he seems to fit in really well so I imagine he takes credit for helping in Messi's absence too) and also that the Iniesta goal was a pretty special one with an excellent assist by Neymar. For those of us (I include myself) that would like to see those sorts of inventive skills stay relevant or return to being in vogue a bit more then I think Neymar in recent times has clearly been helping with that - I was watching his performance vs Villareal on Youtube and although in general I wouldn't say it was consistently brilliant, the goal he invented and pulled off successfully certainly was. On both those occasions, it wasn't a wasted or 'nearly' moment but very effective of course as well as skilful/inventive.

So I can't take part in discussing Man of the Match but for what it's worth it seems some in the UK did watch El Classico as game of choice, and the Guardian and also here the BBC do give Iniesta Man of the Match/the best score out of 10:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34892072

 

Messi's part in the 4th goal was quality of course too to be fair. It can be true that they won the game without him, but he played well or very well when he came on (if overall he did that which it seems is the concensus, without ideas he was Man of the Match). And it can be true he's the most capable player in the world but Barcelona are major contenders for best team in the world currently even if he isn't playing.

 

I feel Busquets was also good in spotting the positional play advantage at the 4th goal (notice Gareth Bale being out of position and Barcelona/Alves/Messi exploits this). It was generally superior throughout the game and also the positional play at the 3th goal for example. Busquets is probably a player which has no 2nd one in world football (in what can do or offers - his job description) - or comes at least the closest to that. He directly 'made' the first goal'.

More people have noticed him now but past season (2014-15) he wasn't at his best in his the first half and carried a minor injury I remember. Luis Enrique also didn't utilize him at his best, quite clearly. Then later he improved majorly and was also used in his best way (for example: no Mascherano as restrictor next to him). When I made my personal Barcelona All time XI I had him already included (though more as a fit for the stars, so that it could work properly). It will be tough to replace him esp. because 'La Masia' has decreased somewhat in status/output after Guardiola and the Laporta administration left.

The idea is a little bit like this:

(I don't agree with Neuer as an example by the way)

It's always easy to say in hindsight that this was the poorest Real Madrid in five years, but I remember a few more occasions of recent years where they were vulnerable or seen as disorganized. That they were coming into the match with mixed form, or at the backfoot.
Many wondered as well how Barcelona would perform against a big opponent, feeling that in the past two months they didn't play sides nearly to their peer group.

Real Madrid their issue is that they bring in managers with radically different ideas (and tbh I doubt whether Benitez is all that good - he ruined Internazionale for example). It's at least one of their key problems that managers don't built/expand on what has worked previously; for ex. the tinkering and swapping with Kroos/Modric.
"RM-enormously talented squad. But every 1-2 yrs the players have to learn an entirely new system w/ totally different ideas. Confusion clear."

Funnily in a comparable way that was also true for Barcelona in the 2012-2014 lean years (next to financial stagnation, before expansion in summer 2014). They reorganized their staffing in those years, relocated physiotherapists and such, but reversed many of those choices back to the old state early 2014.

 

Yeah, I suppose that sort of study ought to reflect market values for certain players if they are deemed to be a rarity at any particular time. Interestingly there were rumours before the window closed that Arsenal were going to try to sign Busquets (maybe there was no real basis to the idea of that transfer though).

I think of course that not every team needs an anchor DM necessarily, but if the setup does require one (as you say one not two; and as a foil for the other midfield and attacking players) then one that does the job better than any other available player does become very useful and even necessary for the team to function as well as it can and get the best results. Maybe Makelele at Chelsea is a similar example.

 

Neymar has big game temperament. In his Barca time, prior to last night he had scored against Atletico, Real Madrid, PSG, Bayern Munich, Juventus - off the top of my head in big games.

 

Yes, that's what i am talking about

But also Suarez and Iniesta have shown this quality in big occasions

 

I get the impression that Neymar doesn't get butterflies before big games, he just wants to have fun. Cant wait to see him play a full World Cup. No fear!

 

I know its early, but who do you guys see winning the CL this year?

 

Neymar playing in WC18 would be like

 

Barca!

Neymar-Suarez-Messi and Iniesta will be too much for the opponents. There's creativity with Neymar, clinical finishing with Suarez, momentum with Messi, and leadership/vision in Iniesta.

Barca is a complete squad right now.

 

I was watching the 1995 UEFA Cup final yesterday. I do like Zola, bit of a mix between Totti and Del Piero/Baggio really. He didn't seem that 'machismo' either. Btw, he was partnered with Asprilla who suffered 8 (or nine) fouls without a yellow card. He was also one who aged well IMHO - in a way that didn't put too much stress on his team mates too.

This is nice:


And this:

 

Too early. I'm hoping for a Barcelona-Bayern semi final though. Two legs, both sides at / close to full fitness.

 

There have been enough semi finals for Bayern, Barcelona and Real Madrid in the past six years. I hope for other teams (seems unlikely), that will be good for the overall development of football. Also hope Rosell will join Hoeness in a prison cell
If they meet then hopefully fit teams at the start, or equally handicapped teams (unlike last year).

 

Thanks - yeah I know what you mean about Zola, and I noticed the Best video recently after I was looking again at the video by the user with name ziggystardust and also had looked at his 1969 assist for Charlton vs Milan - I hadn't watched all of that one you posted but had thought about showing it to you actually!

 

Puck is adamant that Valderrama's "work rate wasn't fine." Puck is also adamant that "Valderrama was bad in transition." Essentially, Puck's argument is that Valderrama was inherently mediocre at work rate. And so I've made a video that focuses on the complete game of Valderrama, both on and off the ball, and I find that many of the characteristics that are well evident/consistent in the video, are completely at odds with Puck's one dimensional (read: derogatory) portrayal of Valderrama.

In the video, I think whomever sees it, should at one point or the other notice *enough* of the following points/characteristics,

(a) Although relatively slow, Valderrama was certainly deceptively quick in short distance sprints; he could "catch up" to faster players over short distances, with enough consistency that it becomes a signature of his style of play

(b) Valderrama seemed to be a precise man-marker. Once he "caught up" to his (for the most part) faster opponents, he usually didn't "loosed" them. Valderrama also seemed to be an accurate "tackler," considering his solid success rate at tackles.

(c) Valderrama was nowhere near as "lazy" as the stereotypical brush that he's painted with; the amount of times he seems to be positioned in precisely the right space/place to be the first to "catch up" to a loose ball, is as good an example as any, of good work rate and also of good football IQ. Lazy midfielders simply don't have the presence that Valderrama characteristically had. Peripheral on the ball; but his presence off the ball was a big factor of his game.

(d) The well established myth that "Valderrama would not be able to play against modern pressing," is completely at odds with the videos of Valderrama's time, many of which show Valderrama being closely followed by one or two opponents, pretty much at all times. Modern football is faster, but faster in terms of how the entire team moves like an unit and presses like an unit (whereas in Valderrama's time, the midfield and the forwards were more "detached" from one another). That being said, in Valderrama's time, midfielders were already subject to constant pressing -- midfield play in the modern game doesn't seem to be much physical than it already was in Valderrama's defensive era.

(e) A lot of the time Valderrama would "crash against" physically taller (and perhaps bigger) opponents, and he seemed to come out on top in a lot of said exchanges. Definitely at odds with the "Valderrama was a classic playmaker" myth -- classic playmakers didn't get their hands dirty, at least nowhere near to the extent that Valderrama consistently did in the 1990-91 season.

Bottom Line: listening to Puck's portrayal of Valderrama, and actually watching Valderrama, I just find Puck's opinion to be largely inaccurate. Valderrama wasn't Michael Ballack, nor was he Xavi Hernandez, but he definitely was nowhere near as "bad in transition" as Puck insists he was. The video below mostly consists of just 4 games -- in just 4 games, I had absolutely no problem finding more than enough examples of energetic work rate (plus the many sliding tackles that I didn't included in the video).



Can anybody explain to me, how the player above is "lazy" or "lacking work rate" when compared to other creative midfielders from his own era?

 

The problem is that you always make it personal, rather than addressing the content of the various articles posted. Such as this one. But instead of taking into account those, the only thing you do is directing it to a person. You also don't take into account that it was specifically about the Montpellier and Valladolid spells.
http://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/news...ama-artist-short-spell-montpellier-87394.html

 

I'm not making it personal. Critique is not inherently personal. That's why the video. Watch it. Respond to it. Unlike you, I actually took the time to back my words with actual footage taken from the actual complete games (rather than taken from misleading four minute highlight videos).

NOTE

The video above includes a lot of Montpellier segments, that is, from the very few available Montpellier games.

 

No thank you. I've seen more than enough from Valderrama (non-highlights, non-cherry picked footage) to know to what extent public perception was true.

 

Classic. @lessthanjake has your whole act down to a tee. Hopefully, non-biased posters will watch the video, and will realize how misleading you've been throughout this thread.

In any case, I sustained my argument with actually comprehensive footage. All you offered were cherry picked (read: misleading) segments taken out of four minute highlight reels. It's pretty obvious who offered the more conclusive and convincing argument.

 

Hopefully non-biased posters will also read these pages:
http://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2753

As far as master shill lessthanjake is concerned: he has accused more than a dozen of "temper tantrum" (his trademarked expression) so I'm far from impressed.

By now you've exposed in the bare open it was something personal indeed Just like I said.

edit:

It is pretty obvious that those more than a handful full highlights of Valladolid games, of which I admitted the randomness, showed key moments and key transitions in the outcome of a match.

 

I provide real footage, taken from complete matches. You respond with "pesstatsdatabase," and you don't seem to be aware of the fact that said data base is extremely badly informed about a great deal of players?

Not to mention the fact that PES is an extremely outdated video game, that is thoroughly incapable of measuring the value of players like Iniesta/Valderrama -- stats for the attributes that made said players unique, do not exist within the extremely outdated design of PES, the video game. Not only is it painfully obvious that you don't understand how PES works in the first place, but it's dumbfounding how you seem to think that some badly informed website about an outdated video game is or could be hard core data of anything even remotely credible.

Of course you'll be far from impressed. You seem to think that the data base of a video game that still runs on a PS2 design, is relevant to this discussion.

Anyways, I'm not expecting you to be impressed with a poster who has completely toyed with your arguments.

Honestly, I haven't "exposed" your bias anywhere near as much as you've done so yourself (with your thoroughly cringe-worthy ignorance). In any case, I'll just repeat the point: your argument is almost entirely based on anecdotal remarks, cherry picked moments that you've taken out of four minute highlight reels, and pesstatsdatabase. Your argument is silly enough that it doesn't really have to be "exposed," as much as merely read aloud.