So where do we start? In a sense I was every bit as shell-shocked as Reuben and the Real Madrid players. It was bound to happen eventually... a lot of the ood results defensively of late were because of magical goalkeeping, not great defence. So with the defence stretched even further with two first-choice players missing, this was always on the cards. I should just be grateful it wasn't a Milan or a Man U we faced with this performance. Let's look at a few lowlights: The coach: More than anyone else he must take the blame for this one. 1) Pavon at the right. Since when has pavon had the speed and the balance to cope with someone of Reyes' speed and skill? 2) Playing Guti. At a time when the defence is missing two first choice players and you are playing away from home, why not play Cambiasso? It was obvious that the defence needed some cover, and Guti is just too lazy and too inept to provide it. We were overrun at midfield which meant that the ball kept coming at an inexperienced defence that wasn't up to the job. 3) Keeping Guti on: It was mystifying why he kept Guti on that long. Yes I know he had two shots at goal but other than that he was useless. The 4th goal when Pavon dispossessed was a case in point... you could see Beckham desperately trying to get back while Guti stood and watched near the halfway line. Other than not winning the ball, he also kept losing it, the time he got a red card being a prime example. It was obvious in 10-15 minutes that cambiasso needed to come on... instead he spent most of 90 minutes warming up. 4) Keeping Raul on: We are getting a rerun of Del Bosque's Holy Cow syndrome. Regardless of how badly they played raul and Hierro could not be touched and now the same thing is happening with Raul. What is Portillo doing on the bench? Why was he not brought on when it was painfully obvious that raul was playing at 50% of his ability? When he was missing sitters, slow of his mark, lacking sharpness and hunger? 5) Playing Reuben and not playing Solari: I know that Reuben needs exposure to develop but I don't think it's fair to have thrown him into a team that lacks the guidance of Roberto Carlos and salgado in defence, has no cover in midfield, is playing away from home against one of Spain's better teams and a team that includes one of the two best young players in Spain. It was obvious that he needed to start Solari simply because of the experience he brings and play Raul Bravo on the right sinc he at lease has a chance of staying on his feet against Reyes. The President: maybe even more to blame than the coach. I hope the message is loud and clear Senor Perez... the Pavon's and Reuben's are not enough. You need the Milito's and the Chivu's and the Lucio's of the world. Figo: It is a team sport and when the guy at right back was getting skinned and roasted alive, and clearly lacked the ability to take on Reyes alone, Figo needed to support him better, to get back and to provide some defensive cover. Guti: On a night when the team performance gets a zero, Guti gets a minus 10. I hope this performance explains to the Guti fans once and for all why so many of us can't stand him. Can't defend, can't track back, can't tackle, can't pass, loses the ball, puts the team in bad situations because of his wannabe tough guy act, cannot link attack and defence, leaves too much work to Beckham. Every match he will have 5 good touches and all his fans will say how good he is, but he compensates by screwing up a minimum 5-10 times per match. Wish they had not extended his contract. I'd love to know what Casillas told him. Zidane: Just not fast in enough in taking the ball upfield or releasing it. Please compare to Reyes or to Mutu or Duff from the Chelsea team in their match yesterday against Newcastle. Raul: Needs time on the bench, whether we like it or not. His worst season that I can remember. Let Casillas take over the captaincy for a few games or Roberto carlos when he is fit. Pavon: Better once he moved into his usual position so can't really blame him if he was played out of position, in a role he is not suited for. But no one expected him to be burnt so badly. Helguera: Lack of defensive support but also poor marking and often hopelessly out of position. Average marks: Casillas (not much for him to do except pick up the ball from the net after his defence let him down), Raul Bravo and Beckham The only ones to emerge with credit: Ronaldo (kept trying but had too little support) and Solari (good even in a brand new left back position, he needs to be a part of the first XI, we must get over this reputation obsession)
Ok I see that this thread has already been started on the main Spain board. Will re-post my message there. can a mod delete this thread or merge the two?
I think that the thread in the Spain board should be moved to this Board. I think that the games of Real Madrid and Barcelona has been always created in its respective boads. I will make my analisys later, but i'm agree with anirbanblah in many things
Think positive..... 1) It is an away match still early in the season. The problems can be solved. 2) Everyone at the Madrid management should know..... you cannot win with offense alone!!! 3) Still better than what happened to another team(Can't say because without a [R] for that match) losing this week.
anirbanblah Nice post. A couple more notes; Agreed on Guti, now I only hope that Saez also saw that match, I get exasperated everytime he gets called up to the NT. Reyes was incredible, I don't think that CQ expected that from him. He went from having Pavon mark him to Ruben to Raul Bravo. Neither did a good job, all of them got yellow cards on tackles on Reyes. I disagree on your review of Solari, yes he was playing out pf position, but he was driven nuts by Alves, who played like he wants to take Cafu's place in the brazilian NT. Excape Goat About your post: 1. The season is more than a quarter over and how are the problems of lack of depth and no defensive midfield are going to be solved? 2. Should know, but don't seem to care 3. I agree.
That thread out on the Spain board doesn't belong here. I'll leave it over there for the mouth breathers have the chance to drool over this result. This thread here will serve for the intelligent commentary.
In defense of EG, I generally consider the first half of the season to be "early". Coming to hasty conclusions based on one result when the defense was undermanned is not prudent. Does there need to be greater depth on defense? Yes. Is this result representative of an impending downfall? Not in my opinion. Will a "star" in the center of defense be the cure all? Not necessarily. Injuries and cards happen to every team. It just so happened that Madrid had a confluence of negative factors going in to this match, and Sevilla took advantage of that. Who knows, maybe this will serve as some sort of alarm to Perez that he should make a deal over the New Year.
Well said, Sinko, but this is the third game in a row that the defense didn´t do the job. The first two Casillas built a brick wall on the goal line. He can´t do it alone. I do hope Perez and Valdano looks at this and decides to grab a couple defenders for Three Kings Day.
Good decision on the thread, if I may say. I hope the following count as intelligent discussions. I can't stand the Ha ha ha posts Well, yes and no. I hope that makes sense. In football, there is always a sense of urgency, when you consider that the average losses by the Champion team is around 6 per year. I don't think is hasty to say that there needs to be help in the middle of the field. Makelele is missed. Agreed 100% In the center of the defense? I think you are right, I think where the difference can be marked is the center of the midfield. I think that if Salgado was there yesterday, he would have been driven nuts by Reyes, Reyes was beyond brilliant. An amazing performance. The difference might have been marked by Roberto Carlos, where Alves drove Raul Bravo and then Solari crazy. Naahh, they won't. Perez will live and die with what they got, which by the way, its not bad. Not at all, thats why he won't do anything about it.
I did not see this game but I listened to most of it over the internet. there is a lot of talk in the Spanish press criticising Queiroz for his substitution of Ruben in the 26th minute, which left him crying on the bench. I wonder what you guys think of that? Leading up to this game I thought Madrid would have a rough go, but not this rough. As has been said though, perhaps this result is for the best if the management is going to get it together. Queiroz obviously did not hit the mark in putting together this makeshift defense, but the person I would blame above all is Perez. People are saying Valdano but I have the impression that Valdano can not make a move without approval from Perez. I love Madrid's strength in attack, but why does a world class team not have someone on the roster capable of filling in at every position? I'm not saying that they ought to have two backup fullbacks of the quality of Roberto Carlos and Salgado, but basically they have no one. OK - Raul Bravo could play left back. Solari has filled in there once before that I can remember. Right back?? I also expected to see Cambiasso in place of Guti, as he is a more defensive midfielder. Scratching my head there.
http://www.as.com/articulo.html?xref=20031111dasdai_119&anchor=dasopiA00&type=Tes&d_date=11/11/2003 will this work? link to a radio interview with Carlos Queiroz discussing what happened in Sevilla. Wow. He's getting something of a grilling here.
http://www.cadenaser.com/player.html?audioFile=20031111csrcsrdep_2.Aes previous link was to the article. this should be the radio link. this interview is about 30 minutes I think!
Anir very good post. I agree with much of what you have said. In my view Makelele's ball winning in midfield is sorely missed by Madrid. When they were forced to play an improvised defense yesterday v Sevilla their inexperienced defenders (youth player Ruben and centerback Pavon playing at right back where he's never played before) were exposed becasue they did not receive any protection from the defensive midfielders. Guti is a skilled player but isn't a ball winner. Real Madrid needs to find a ball winner during the winter break. Don't be surprised to see them sign Boca Juniors Sebastian Battaglia. But overall a loss like that may help Madrid in the long run. It exposed some weaknesses and brought the team down to earth. I still wish Milito was in Madrid!
Doubt it. Knowing Perez, he would look at a Viera or davids. battaglia would be too Milito like for him... excellent player but not a big name. Our loss
I agree with part of what you say here. What Madrid has already is pretty good. It would not necessarily fit his modus operandi to make a mid-season move, but he's a risk taker, and a smart one at that. But if Perez finds a deal to make that he sees as beneficial to the team, then I'd bet on him making it happen.
I missed all the agruments.... most of what I wanted to say is already being said. The transfer window will be opened again in December. So I expect some purchases.... althrough not many defenders who is still eligible for CL would be avaible!!!
3 non-EU in squad or playing XI? So it means with Roberto carlos and Ronaldo in the team, it will be either Solari or Lucio if we sign Lucio? Aren't any of these guys eligible for dual citizenship by now, esp. Carlos?
Solari has a Spanish passport. The three non-EU on the rosters are Roberto Carlos, Ronaldo, and Cambiasso has to sit if Lucio or Alex is signed.
Better late than never.These are my conclusions about the game.Some similars to yours. Worse Players ------------- Pavon - He wasn't in his natural position. But if you aren't in you position, you shouldn't try to make thinks that you don't do well, like dribbling near the goal area. The four goal was his fault. Ruben - It wasn't his day. HE was awful in the first 15 minutes. He made a clear mistake in the firs goal, and in the second he was running around like a chicken without a head. Guti - He is a great offensive player, but he has clear defensive deficiencies. In my opinion his natural position is between the forward and midfielders. In this Real Madrid He only should play in the starting team in the home games, where he can help to create play with his great vision of play. Anyway, Against Sevilla he was horrible in what he does well - create play-, and he was even worse in what he doesn't do well - defend -. And finally he saw a stupid red card, when the game was 4-1. less options in the middle for the next games. Raul - He is not playing good this year. He is slow. He failed goal impossible to fail and he also failed another goal because he was too slow. Anyway, and against some opinions, i think that he still should play. He is very important for the team as leader. I'm sure that he knows that he is playing good. I have confidence in him. He and Roberto Carlos has been the more consistents RM players in the 6-7 years. Quieroz ------- The spain journanist are attacking him very very very hard. In their opinion he is the only guilty of the defeat . I'm not agree with that but he made some mistakes in this game. The most important, like someone has said, was to put Guti in the middle. if the team had a so fragile defense you shouldn't put him in the middle, you should protect the defense with a deffensive midfielder like Cambiasso. About the decision to put pavon in the right. I think that the result would have been the same or very similar with other player. If put Olalla, Reyes would have destroyed the youth teams player, and the people would be saying that he didn't have to put a player that play his first official game against a player like Reyes. Other option was put Raul Bravo - the option that spain journalists defend - but we saw in the second half that he saw a yellow card because he can't stop Reyes and Reyes with the team winning 4-0 wasn't the same Reyes that in the first half. Raul Bravo natural position is the left. Other option could be Solari that play in the left and that its more a midfielder than a defender,i don't think so. He would have done a great effort, because solari is a great proffesional, but i think that the result would have been similar. Also, the journalists criticized him very much the change of Ruben. They said that Queiroz is a bad manager and he isn't a good person. Well, i can agree about that to change a young player in the 25 minute of the game, maybe was too hard for Ruben. But at the same time i don't like that a Real Madrid player cry like Ruben cried. Like a veteran RM player Michel said, he should have cry in the dressroom. Michel said that when Raul began to play with the first team Michel treated Raul like a man not like a child, and Raul was 16-17 years old. Ruben is 20 years old, he should know that to play in RM he must be a very strong player, you have many benefits, but you also have a great pressure. A think about Queiroz that i don't like is that he is making very few subs.Del Bosque was critize the last year because he didn't made many subs and the team was dead at the end of the season. Well, Queroz is making many less subs than Del Bosque. In some games he hasn't made any subs. And in many games he has only made subs in the last 5 minutes of play. He should use more players like Solari, Portillo, Cambiasso or Nuñez. It is very bad for the motivation of these player play so few minutes. They are players that could play 15-25 minutes each game being very useful for the team. Florentino ---------- I really really really hope that he take note of this game. Real Madrid play a lot of games each year. And we could have the same problem again , maybe 3 or 4 times this season. If we didn't sign a new player in December we will have to pray to not have this problem in February - April when we play against the big teams in CL, and result of a game can be decisive. Anyway, we must maintain the perspective. We are the 3 in la liga with the same points of Valencia - second -, and only with 2 points behind Depor. Before this game 'Diaro AS' was saying that we had more poins in la liga this season than in the last 10 seasons. We have had a very good begining of liga. And I think that RM and Juventus are the only only teams already classified to the next round of champions league. And I must rememember that it is not the first time that RM lost by big numbers, the last year we lost in Bernabeu 5-1 against Mallorca and finally we won la liga. I remember the game very well because i was there, and it wasn't very fun. IF Florentino, Queiroz and the players learn of this defeat, it can be good for the future. Valdano said at begining of the season that "we would be more comfortable if we had more Centerbacks. We will see how the team play and we will take a decision in December". Well ........
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/soccer/11/13/bc.eu.spt.soc.villarreal.battaglia.ap/index.html Well I guess that's another option down the toilet! MadridForever, very good post. Always good to have the local perspective.