The defense files a motion to dismiss, your honor. The prosecution is badgering the witness and is clearly not competent to represent the state. JK better than anyone, now that's funny. Jovan is all pedigree, which is great for a dog and pony show, but sorry in the real world. He's never done ANYTHING professionally or internationally and despite his appearance in the champions league, that guy's a spare. It's hard to speculate, but I'd bet JK wouldn't be a top scorer in the league. He looked his best 4 the nats when he played the 10 spot. I think that's his only future since he's totally inept in the target, the slot, or either winger spot. Slow feet, no defense & no fire in his belly add up for a very uninspiring career. He doesn't suck but no one would ever look at that guy and say, "he can make a difference." While Kreis will soon be the all time scorer, JK is an overrated journey man. The defense calls a suprise witness to the stand, Steve Burlein. Steve, is true that you were once the starting quarterback for Notre Dame, the Dallas Cowboys, LA Raiders and AZ Cardinals?
As much as I hate McBride, I have trouble saying that anybody on that list should be above him on the strikers list. If anybody, it should be Twellman. It surprises me Cunningham made the Top 10. Ben Olsen should be WAY higher.
This argument implies you need rest. 1. Wagner never played for Arena, so who cares. 2. Mais and Deering have nothing to do with Kreis, as Jason is not going to play dmid. 3. Manny Lagos has two caps to his names, compared to Kreis' 14. So how is that Lagos has proven "consistently" that he can't cut it at the international level, but Kreis has not had enough time? Illogical. Sleep tight.
I like the listing of these players, but I don't understand the need to rank them. Especially at this point in time, a list is more than enough. Rankings will come as the games are played. Just my thoughts.
People will still ask after Dallas has yet to lift MLS Cup, why couldn't Kreis lead his team to the crown like Donovan did three times?
What the heck are you taling about? He never won the U17, Olympics or WC last time I checked. Donovan has 1 ring for 2k1. Last time I checked, soccer is still a team sport and he had contributions from Ekulund(sp) in that game. Dallas lacked a defensive presence last yr that we now have w/ Morrow and T-bone. Plus Vaca was young and the whole deering/paraja didn't gel. based upon your reasoning Carlos Valderama couldn't hold a candle to Francisco Gomez. San Jose may yet again win another cup this yr, but it's because of their marking and stellar goalkeeping that differentiates them from the other teams in the west. Lets see how they play on the road. Jason fits into the slot perfectly, but he's too old now.
Re: Re: September edition - the Ursuline 100 Simple: That's why. And Donovan only has one ring. Sachin
wu-tang.. if you want to know why Kreis no longer plays for the Nats, go watch a tape of the Iran friendly from 2000. He missed, by my count, 8 possible shots on net. Not shots that were blocked, but shots that he shanked, shot wide or just plain missed. Sachin
A few points: 1. I will renew my disapproval at having Ramiro Corrales listed as a defender. Quakes fans will tell you that any time he spent in defense was due solely to the team's significant injury troubles there (missing Agoos and Dayak for much of this season). His natural position, and where he is found under normal circumstances with the Quakes, is in the midfield. 2. Nick Garcia is placed far too low on the defender list. He certainly should be above the disappointing Danny Califf and the plodding Jimmy Conrad at least. Garcia has now shown the ability to move into central defense, thus increasing his value at the international level, while Califf has regressed and is only a spot starter at present. 3. Another player misplaced is Dema Kovalenko. He may at one time have been a forward, but he certainly does not play there with Chicago. For the Fire he is a central or attacking mid while Razov and Wolff are the forwards. Along those same lines, I'm also puzzled as to why Landon Donovan is thrown in with a group that is virtually all flank midfielders. It seems to me that some refinement is necessary to keep the midfielders organized in a way that more closely resembles the actual depth charts on the team. I cannot seen Landon Donovan as being in competition with Eddie Lewis for a spot on the US roster, nor can I see Claudio Reyna competing with Richie Williams. My suggestion would be to have three midfield categories: defensive mid, attacking central mid and flank mid.
Kyledane posted: In defense of Gers, there is no totally satisfactory way to categorize the midfielders under Arena. For much of qualifying, the team played without flank midfielders in a box midfield. But just listing players as attacking or defending mids would not work either: most players seemed to fulfill both roles; only a few, like Armas and Stewart, did not. The best description here of how things worked then was the "left wing lock" thread, which categorized by the middies defensive responsibilities: there was the Armas position as "destroyer" or "windshield wiper" in front of the defenders; the Stewart position, free to roam and defend as a forward; and two central mids (typically Reyna-Sanneh early, Reyna-JOB later) who closed down the center and forced attacks to the outside. In this scheme, Landon, Clint, and Stewart all competed for one spot in midfield, whether they played mostly wide or centrally, and whether they played mostly off the ball (Stewart) or were expected to be the maestro of distribution in the attacking third (as some envisaged Donovan). "Wingers" who could defend well, such as DMB or Lewis, could play in either the Stewart role, or in the Sanneh role as sidekick to the primary two-way mid (Reyna or JOB). By the World Cup, Arena was experimenting with different looks, including using players more as true wingers, and this categorization breaks down. The problem with your categorization is that it suggests Arena will play with a central attacking mid (Landon or Clint?), two wingers, and a dmid. This is clearly wrong so long as Reyna and JOB are the heart of midfield. There are two central mids that everyone else revolves around. Then Arena adds, most often, one dmid and one winger/central attacking mid. In the WC, he at times used two central two way mids and two attacker/wingers. In a 3-5-2, you get an extra pick who could be anything. In effect everyone is in competition with everyone else for playing time, except Reyna and JOB. So Landon IS competing with Lewis, (until his defense is good enough to fulfill the Reyna/JOB two way role). Indeed, in the WC, both played as wingers; the fact that one is left footed and one right footed made it seem as if they were not in competition for playing time. Gers' categories work about as well as anything would, if you are trying to see who is competing against each other for spots in an Arena midfield.
kyledane - I understand what you are saying. In addition to short corner's welcome response, I would point out that given my categories, you could have, depending on formation 2 or 3 players from that group starting or playing at the same time. Typically you might see one of them playing behind the two strikers and another on the wing (or one on each wing). At any rate, there is so much variation between attacking players as it is, I think making more categories would just spark more deliberation as to who should be where, rather than talking about the rankings. Re Ramiro Corrales: Anyone else care to weigh in on this? is he better listed as a central or d-mid? How about the rest of you on Garcia? I guess my big down on him is my impression that if he were playing in a European league, he would lead the planet in red cards and suspensions (although in saying that I notice I have him below CJ Brown, who be serving time in prison if he played overseas). Anyway, let me know what you think, and thanks again to all for weighing in on these things.
A lot of people have trouble with this concept, but International play does not equal club play. The list is long of guys who play one position for their club and another for country. In the case of Corrales, Arena does not use flank midfielders that much. Corrales certainly is not skilled enough to be an attacking midfielder, so that leaves a defensive midfield role, which Corrales has a shot at. But Arena clearly has a preference for outside backs that can get forward and Corrales can do this and has shown defensive ability as well. It is somewhat of a longshot, but Corrales seems a better fit within Arena's system at left back, though it is close. Garcia is not good enough to make up for his lack of size. For that reason, even if Califf is "disappointing" -- and it should be noted that he generally starts for a better team than Garcia, his physical skills make him a better international prospect than Garcia. Well since Arena does not use these categories, I don't think it makes sense to do so. Arena is definitely not wed to using one attacking mid and one dmids with two flank midfielders. The best you can do with Arena is classify midfielders into those that play deep and those that play more forward. Yes, Steve Ralston has to beat out Landon Donovan for playing time.
my .02 - Garcia is way better than Califf. Califf can barely kick the ball much less play soccer. Garcia is also much better than Conrad as much as I hate to admit it. Corrales is much more of a natural midfielder (left mid and/or central/holding mid) than left back. Whoever said it was right - he's been playing back there due to injuries and his own versatility. In the end Donovan should probably be on both the midfielder list AND the striker list, though I know that doesn't really work on this particular depth chart.
Fair enough, but ... OK, where is Garcia going to play. Talent or not,m he has to fit somewhere. I just don't see it -- too small to play centrally in the back, doesn't get forward enough to play outside in the back and doesn't have the skill for a holding midfiled role. Maybe, though Corrales played in the back in the Olympics or Olympics qualifying, so it's not like it is some hair-brained scheme. Corrales is simply not explosive enough to play a wing midfield role, assuming that Arena wanted to use such a player. Maybe Corrales is a better fit in a holding midfield role, but if I were him I would rather compete with Frankie Hejduk or Diego Guitierez or even Wade Barrett on the left than with Reyna, Matroeni, JOB, Armas, Vaegnas etc. Well, it's just another way to organize the list. No big thing. The important thing is to recognize that guys like Mark Chung, Steve Ralston, Jason Kreis are competing with playing time with LD and Mathis when you get down to it.
The fact that you don't see it should have nothing to do with the way this list is put together. No one here saw it that either Richie Williams or Mike Burns had the ability to play at the international level and yet both have numerous caps, so clearly our opinions are not the most important factor. What should matter is demonstrated ability to play positions that are of interest at the international level. Despite his small stature, Garcia has done that at two positions. I happen to think Garcia fits very well as an outside back and that his failure to go forward when he played there for KC was more the result of KC's system and personnel than a lack of ability on his part. I could be wrong. It may be that when he gets to the international level (finally) he will be unable to go forward effectively. But that's why you bring players into camp and get them into friendlies. Once they've proved it at the MLS level, you give them the chance to prove it internationally. Garcia has earned that shot, while a number of players placed above him on this list have not. You say he's not explosive enough to play wing midfield. I say he doesn't play defense well enough to play flank defense. So where does that leave us? With Corrales on neither of these lists and that's the way it should be. There is a good reason why he's never been able to win a regular starting role in this league over the last seven years. He's decent at many things, but above average at nothing. You can say it, but I don't believe it. Chung and Ralston are competing with Cobi and Stewart as far as I can see for the flank positions on the team. Kreis is competing with Donovan and Mathis for central attacking mid. You would not ever see a US team that did not have some of each (eschewing flank players for all central mids or vice versa). So logically, the competitions for those positions must be mostly separate, even if Bruce doesn't list them as such. I'm fine with leaving it as is for the purposes of discussion, but it will continue to make me uncomfortable.
I doubt we see Garcia for the Nats. He could be the 'right man marker' in a 3-5-2 maybe. Other than that he doesn't have the ball skill or passing skill to play right back in a 4-4-2 and he's really short to try and play centrally.
I think you guys are both missing a very key point here with the "he doesn't have the skills" comments. Not every player that has come to the Nats and done well appeared to have the skills when he was playing at lower levels of competition. If you were to ask US fans four years ago whether Tony Sanneh had the skills you describe, 80% of them would have said no (and the other 20% would have been wrong). Yet, here he is now, listed as our best defender. We are not so advanced as a soccer nation that we can count on having complete players at every position. We will continue to have players on our team who have found ways to overcome their deficiencies. I'm not saying Garcia is one of them. But I think his ability to succeed consistently in his MLS roles is testament to his chances. By the same token, you will note my consistency in doubting the chances of players who have not been so successful in our league like Corrales and Califf. The best indicator of future success is past success - and the higher the level of that past success the better.
Kyledane, You have it backwards. Sanneh is the posterchild for all of us who think that Garcia will not make it at the international level, but Califf might. Sanneh shows that a player with outstanding physical strength and speed can gradually acquire sufficient skills to be a good international player. He shows why some think Califf and Curtin as center backs, and Broome as an outside back, have a shot internationally while Garcia and Rusty Pierce probably do not. The player Nick Garcia has to emulate if he wants an international career is Jeff Agoos, who is neither big nor outstandingly fast, but was and perhaps still is a useful international defender. But to do so he would have to learn to read the game, and organize a defense, as well as Agoos or Lalas can now, and hope that Bocanegra, Curtin, Califf, Akwari and Onyewu do not develop that aspect of their game. A long shot, but not impossible. Of course, Rusty Pierce, Steve Jolley, Brian Dunseth, Chad McCarty, and every other MLS defender has the same long shot, and I don't see why anyone who isn't a died in the wool Wizards fan would single out Garcia as the one most likely to succeed.
Jovan Kirovski: 56 Appearances, 7 goals in international play. Jason Kreis: 14 Appearances, 1 goal in international play. But don't let the facts stand in your way; after all, Kreis is heaps better than JK Kreis is a good club player, has been brilliant for Dallas, but has not shown the goods in a USA shirt.
Of course I saw that Richie Williams had the ability to play for the Nats -- he does the same thing for the Nats (on those rare occasions he played) that he did for Arena in DC. When I say that "I don't see" something it is just a figure of speech. Since it is confusing, I will state my opinion without this little flourish. Garcia is not big enough to play in the center and doesn't get forward well enough for the outside. Why do you "happen to believe" that. He has never done it. I think Arena will call him into a camp at some point. But my opinion is that Garcia will never establish himself at the international level, mainly for the reasons I and Wanderer gave. Where does that leave us? With me right and you wrong! I don't know if Corrales can play at the international level.? But given his experience at left back and his sucess this year on one of MLS's best teams, especially given the weakness the US has at left back, he is worth a look. IMHO. Have you even watched the USMNT? Arena is not wed to using wide midfielders. Look at the midfields in the three games in the World Cup where a 4-4-2 was used -- Poland -- LD, JOB, Reyna and Stewart : basically no wide players though Stewart is a hybrid. South Korea -- Donovan, JOB, Reyna, Beasley -- only Beasley is a flank midfielder. Portugal -- the closest to tradtional with JOB and Mastroeni in the middle, with Stewart drifting all over the field, but more on the right, and Beasley working the left. BTW Ralston and Chung can't play at the international level though Arena will probably call them into camp to be nice and respectful of their club accomplishments. Open your mind!
I'd like to see how big and tall Cherundolo is in comparison to Garcia. Dolo looks like a 5'6" midget on TV while Garcia does not. Plus, garcia din't look to small @ the Cotton Bowl in person, though I didn't get anywhere near him. Klein could've taken all of our lunch money including Arnold's tormentor, the Gooch. Let's not dive into the whole Rusty Pierce hack issue again. I think any MLS standout has earned a shot on the Nats, including Rusty. BTW , Sr.Schmuck I'd rather spend time proving a guy's good only w/ his club but not w/ the nats than on a pedigreed journey man that stole 56 caps from better athletes.