September edition - the Ursuline 100

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by GersMan, Aug 29, 2002.

  1. GersMan

    GersMan Member

    May 11, 2000
    100 Best American PRO players right now.

    (separate youth list coming in a few days)

    Goalkeepers (10)
    1. Brad Friedel
    2. Kasey Keller
    3. Tim Howard
    4. Nick Rimando
    5. Tony Meola
    6. Joe Cannon
    7. Zach Thornton
    8. Johnnie Walker
    9. Adin Brown
    10. Kevin Hartman

    Defenders (30)
    1. Tony Sanneh
    2. Eddie Pope
    3. Carlos Bocanegra
    4. Greg Vanney
    5. Steve Cherundolo
    6. Greg Berhalter
    7. Carlos Llamosa
    8. Frankie Hedjuk
    9. Gooch Onyewu
    10. Corey Gibbs
    11. Ryan Suarez
    12. Steve Jolley
    13. Wade Barrett
    14. David Regis
    15. Jeff Agoos
    16. Ramiro Corrales
    17. Mike Petke
    18. Dan Califf
    19. Jim Curtin
    20. Phil Salyer
    21. CJ Brown
    22. Alexi Lalas
    23. Rusty Pierce
    24. Chad Marshall
    25. Jim Conrad
    26. Nick Garcia
    27. Chad McCarty
    28. Nelson Akwari
    29. Rick Titus
    30. Jay Heaps

    Attacking (5-hole) Midfielders and Wingers
    1. Landon Donovan
    2. Damarcus Beasley
    3. Ernie Stewart
    4. Eddie Lewis
    5. Bobby Convey
    6. Kyle Martino
    7. Brad Davis
    8. Chris Henderson
    9. Steve Ralston
    10. Ben Olsen
    11. Cobi Jones
    12. Chris Klein
    13, John Thornington
    14. Justin Mapp
    15. Raul Palomares

    Central, Holding and Defensive Midfielders (15)
    1. John O'Brien
    2. Claudio Reyna
    3. Pablo Mastroeni
    4. Chris Armas
    5. Brian Maisonneuve
    6. Richard Mulrooney
    7. Kelly Gray
    8. Richie Williams
    9. Diego Guttierez
    10. Kerry Zavagnin
    11. Daniel Hernandez
    12. Jordan Stone
    13. Francisco Gomez
    14. Jeff Moore
    15. Kyle Beckerman

    Strikers (20)
    1. Brian McBride
    2. Taylor Twellman
    3. Clint Mathis
    4. Josh Wolff
    5. Conor Casey
    6. Ante Razov
    7. Santino Quaranta
    8. Jason Kreis
    9. Jeff Cunningham
    10. Chris Carrieri
    11. Dema Kovalenko
    12. Joe Max Moore
    13. Edson Buddle
    14, Eddie Johnson
    15. Jovan Kirovski
    16. Mike Magee
    17. Rodriguo Faria
    18. Bobby Rhine
    19. Chris Brown
    20. Freddy Adu (I don't care, he stays on the list)

    10 Wildcards (in no order)
    1. Chris Gbandi
    3. Manny Lagos
    4. Craig Capano
    5. Alex Yi
    6. Devin Barclay
    7. Grover Gibson
    8. David Johnson
    9. Frank Simek
    10. Brian West

    #101 Jon Busch

    (as always, your feedback is encouraged)
  2. zcgf02

    zcgf02 New Member

    Mar 30, 2001
    I'd have to put Zach Thornton above Nick Rimando. Rimando makes so sick saves, but he also lets in dumb goals too much for my tastes...

    Plus I would move Chris Klein up to 5 or 6 on the midfield list.
  3. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    DC United
    I believe defender Rick Titus is from Evil Canada.

  4. wu-tang beez

    wu-tang beez New Member

    Apr 19, 2002
    Irving, TX
    Joe Cannon is playing better than any American keeper right now, esp after watching Friedel's utter indifference to the 2nd he gave up v Liverpool. It's hard to accept, but Dudek outplayed him. Tim Howard has been peppered but he's allowing some soft onses to slip by too. Rimando is far worse than Thornton.

    Suarez and Barret are better than Heydude and Llamosa on most days even though they lack caps. Gooch? are you being serious, he played in some preseason matches for Mezt, lets not overrate him yet. Curtin, CJ & garcia help their teams, goose hurts his.

    Diego has been injured all year and maise is playing some of the best soccer in his professional career. Armas will see fewer than 10caps in a US jersey. He's as good as gone.

    Klein has big play ability and can physically dominate any opponent. Eddie lewis, Chris henderson and Jordan Stone(although very young), on the other hand, wished they had the consistent contributions that ralston has made over his career. He leads the MLS w/ 15 assist this yr. None of those guys will ever tally that in a whole season. Raslton is one of the most creative wingers never to have been given a chance in US history.

    Clint Mathis has been a virtual no show since the tourney, farria would take Magee's lunch money, Johnson has never done a thing outside the junior national teams aside from creating a stir, Carieri is finding his mark and is now a top scorer, but how could you put Kreis anywhere outside the top 3. When his career is over, everyone will know that he was the greatest american soccer player of any position of all time. Only Donovan & Adu have more potential, but potential just means you haven't done anything yet.

    As far as your wild cards go, Yi couldn't beat SMU's finest in a friendly, capano and selections 6-10 have real tallent & are all fighting for pretty much the same position.

    It must have taken a lot of work to crank this out, I confess to have gotten tired head and gave up long ago. We have the right to debate who's better and why, but this just shows how DEEP we are now. The future is so bright, I have to wear shades :)
  5. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    DC United
    I missed this one, but Faria is from Brasil and is not a US Citizen. I don't know if he's trying to get citizenship or not.

  6. FlashMan

    FlashMan Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wouldn't put Convey above Henderson and Ralston...and Chung isn't even on there! All three are better than Convey...who I like by the way, but has a good ways to go.

    As long as we're talking about RIGHT NOW.

    And yes, Titus is Canadian.

    Rimando has been playing great. He just needs another inch or two.
  7. Ghost

    Ghost Member+

    Sep 5, 2001
    I think yiour defenders are out of order.

    Why is Bocanegra so high? He's above Berhalter, who would play ahead of him if the cup were tomorrow. Suarez is way too low. Why is Hejduk so low? He had a very good cup.Bruce seems to have more faith in him than Cherundolo or Vanney.
  8. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Exsqueeze me?

    Donovan is not potential, he is reality. He's played in 5 world cup games and has scored in World Cup competition.

    Kreis? The greatest american soccer player of "all time"?

    Brings new meaning to word "delusional."
  9. NSlander

    NSlander Member

    Feb 28, 2000
    LA CA
    Brandon Prideaux.

    Also, add me to the already substantial list of Galaxy fans who have little regard for Califf.
  10. Short Corner

    Short Corner Member

    Jun 28, 2001
    Still don't get it

    As before, this list mixes together potential and actuality, international and club play in very confusing ways. Rather than nitpick the defense list again (although I still think it has many flaws) lets compare the attacking midfielder list with the list of best attacking US midfielders in MLS since everyone returned from the world cup [Gers rank in brackets]

    1-Cobi Jones [11]. Hottest player in MLS since his return—as any good fantasy manger can tell you.

    1a-Chris Henderson[8].
    1b-Mark Chung[x]. Leaving him off the list is inexcusable.
    1c-Steve Ralston[9].

    These four are very close and the class of MLS this season. Landon and DMB can be ranked above them because of the world cup, but their club form has not been as strong.

    5-Preki[x] and 6-Chris Klein [12] Not nearly as productive as the top four, but marginally better than:

    6a-Landon Donovan[1] and 6b- DMB [2]. (Again, I’m only talking about current form in MLS)

    9-Brian West[wild card 10] Clearly an attacking midfielder, so why a “wild card”?

    The remaining MLS amids who start regularly (in no particular order): Victorine, Lagos [wild card 3], Russell, Gomez[holding mid 13], Quill, Convey[5], Jim Rooney.

    MLS amids who start semi-regularly: Brad Davis[7], Kyle Martino[6]

    MLS amid just back from injury but has not played enough to possibly rank: Ben Olsen [10]

    MLS amids who are rarely seen: Justin Mapp[14]

    How any of the last four can be ranked at all is beyond me—unless, of course the list is really about potential to contribute in 2004-2006.

    If being on the world cup squad is so important why is Cobi ranked so low? If it isn't important, how is Eddie Lewis ranked so high?

    I’m still not sure what the list is trying to measure, but it is definitely not from the Church of Whats Happening Now.
  11. Preston North End

    Feb 17, 2000
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Onyewu hasn't officially been on the Metz roster, this is why he hasn't played any league games. Don't dismiss him because he hasn't played in a pro game yet.

    Lewis had 14 assists in 1997 and 1999. Henderson had 13 in 1997.

    Ralston will finish with more than 15 assists and will do it in less games. He has also had a more than 15 assist on two other occasions. But, he has also had a couple of really CRAP seasons. So much for consistency!

    Henderson's stats in MLS are just as good as Ralston's over their careers. In a 28 game season and playing every minute Ralston scores 5.6 goals and gets 11.3 assits. Henderson scores 5.6 goals and gets 9.0 assists. Lewis would get 2.6 goals and 10 assists based on his MLS numbers. Klein isn't in the same neighborhood in assits at 6.3, but will score 5.8 goals.

    I would take Ralston on the rightwing over Henderson or Klein at the moment, but don't use hyperbole to try and prove a point. Klein could surpass both, but using your parameter of a career, Klein isn't where Ralston AND Henderson are at.

    I would take Lewis on the leftwing over Henderson, Klein, and Ralston. BTW, Henderson is rightfooted in case you were wondering.

    Jordan Stone is a d-mid and shouldn't even be in a convesation concerning Henderson, Ralston, Lewis, and Klein. Maybe as far as overall talent and ability, but not when discussing wingers.
  12. Elninho

    Elninho Member+

    Sacramento Republic FC
    United States
    Oct 30, 2000
    Sacramento, CA
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The list is supposed to be looking toward 2004-06... that means the following:

    1) Mark Chung should NOT be on the list - he has already announced his retirement from the national team.

    2) Neither should Agoos or Lalas. Same reason.

    3) Llamosa won't be very high up. He's unlikely to figure in 2006, though since he hasn't retired from the national team yet, he might get pulled into qualifiers if we're really short of bodies.
  13. BWMcTell

    BWMcTell New Member

    Jul 2, 2002
    I dont think the list is restricted to nats. In which case Mark Chung should definitely be on the list. Agoos is a different story, but Lalas is second on the Galaxy in goals(you cant make this stuff up people).
  14. GersMan

    GersMan Member

    May 11, 2000
    Thanks for all the great feedback, especially the part about Jason Kreis being the best US Soccer player EVER. :)

    First off, while we are all going to look at this kind of thing with the World Cup in mind, it is meant to be for the current time. The only allowance I make re that is if a guy is out longterm, like Armas.

    Mark Chung is actually an editorial mistake. I notice he was not on the list last time and, as I began drafting this with the last list, he just never registered. Just a complete oversight on my part. Short Corner will be coming over to shoot me at dawn. Sorry about that, but hey, it's not like I get paid for this or anything :). I will correct it next time.

    I don't see Cobi, Chris and Steve going any higher (ranking players at this stage of their career is a little different than how well the played in the last match). I'll still take Davis and Martino over all of the other starters at a-mid you mention. Olsen most definitely CAN be ranked, based on his play since returning (and again, there are players ranked who are still out injured).

    I'll grant you West should be ranked over Justin Mapp, with the latter moved to wildcard. Wildcard, btw, is not based on confusion re position, but just an extra 10 players to round out the 100.

    And that we disagree on the rest of it, is,well, the whole point of it.

    Sorry as well about Titus and Faria. I knew there was a reason I hadn't had the former on before (I would move Yi to that list), and when I looked at Faria's hometown on MLSnet, it said somewhere in NY. By that standard, is Kovalenko allowed on here?
  15. Short Corner

    Short Corner Member

    Jun 28, 2001

    When you say you will take Davis or Martino over Chung, Henderson, or Ralston, what do you mean exactly? That Davis and Martino have played the best soccer recently? That they are more skilled? That they have helped their teams more this season? (I would think all three of those statements are strongly false, although Davis and Martino have their good points, and are superior on some skills.) If you were GM for a club that needed cover at amid for the next several months and those 5 players were available, would any stand out as a obvious first choice to seek on loan?

    Or do you mean that Chung and the others at this point have shown they will not be starting internationals, while Davis and Martino still have a good shot?

    I am honestly puzzled as to what you are ranking, and would prefer to badger you for the right reasons and not over a misunderstanding.
  16. wu-tang beez

    wu-tang beez New Member

    Apr 19, 2002
    Irving, TX
    I'm not delusional in the least or a blind fan either. Kreis is still the best soccer player in the US, & unless donovan can put up 15 goals in the MLS or 8 or so for Leverkusen a year, he won't be better than either a fore mentioned player. Mathis w/ all that skill and God given tallent, is still less dangerous and more streaky than Kreis. Right now it's just a difference of opinion, but wait ten yrs when there careers are winding down. People will ask after we still have yet to lift the cup, why didn't Kreis play for the nats? He is the all time leading scorer in US history and had the most wicked 70mph free kick around. He could have been the impact player we needed to put us over the hump. I'll say, " I don't know Wu-Jr. I don't know. Go outside and practice dribbling."

    I'm not to big on Suarez & i think garcia is better and more flexible. Suarez mixes into the attack better but seems to get lost in the zone. Both are great 1v1 markers.

    Every player is aloud an off yr or 2, but Ralston is very consistent and will soon be the all time leader in assist. Klein is a different kind of player, I prefer him long term because of size and his long galloping strides. he's like a Sennah w/ more accurate passing and shooting.

    Yi has no future as a professional soccer player. Sorry.
  17. Taylor Twellman(NE Revolution) should make Top 20 strikers
  18. Bajoro

    Bajoro Member+

    Sep 10, 2000
    The Inland Empire
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm a Quakes fan who has to question the inclusion of Devin Barclay.

    For the Quakes, he mostly wanders around lost of the field. Then when he gets the ball, he has to stop a few moments and think about what he's supposed to do with it.

    I haven't seen his performances in Spain, but he's done nada for the Quakes to merit his inclusion.
  19. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Kreis is a fine MLS player, but fine MLS play does not necessarily translate into a player who can have an equivalent impact in an international game.

    Kreis has three strikes against him.

    --He plays a position -- a hole player -- which requires a tremendous level of technical and tactical skill and a position, as a result, we don't have on the USMNT. And the only player who has a HOPE of every playing this position, is a player who you dissed as one of just "potential" -- Landon Donovan.

    --There are players who are better than him who didn't even MAKE the final 23. The most notable example? Jovan Kirovski.

    --In the world of international soccer, every one needs to be a two-way player. Does that define Jason? Not really.

    Kreis is a very good club player. But in the fast paced international game, where premium is on two-way work rate, and high level technical skills at high pace, he is likely to fall short.

  20. Cavalier

    Cavalier Member

    Sep 9, 1999
    Not delusional? Then how about this (thru 2002).


    1 Preki KC 191 64 91 219
    2 Jason Kreis DAL 201 79 61 219
    3 Roy Lassiter DC 175 88 35 211
    4 Raul Diaz Arce COL* 150 82 29 193
    5 Jaime Moreno DC 147 69 50 188

    So if we are going by MLS stats then Roy Lassiter is certainly a better forward as he has more goals in less games. And Preki has very similar goals and assists numbers to Kreis in less games as well. So you could easily say either of these two are as good or better than Kreis.

    Instead let's head over to National Team Duty where once again we have
    Preki 28 4
    Roy Lassiter 32 4
    Jason Kreis 14 1

    So once again, over his 4 years of Caps for the Nats, we once again see that both Lassiter and Preki have done better than Kreis.

    So clearly statistics paint a very different story than what you're saying. But we all know statistics can lie. But as anyone who has watched the Nats or MLS over the last 6+ years (when Kreis first got a cap and MLS started) can tell you, there is no way that Kreis is the "greatest american soccer player ever". Hell, while I am sure Kreis would be adamant about the fact he feels that he should have had more chances for the Nats, even he wouldn't claim he is the best player for the US ever.

    You my friend are either:
    1) truly delusional
    2) have never watched any soccer game that did not feature the Dallas Burn
    [baiting comment deleted by mod.]
  21. TheSlipperyOne

    TheSlipperyOne Member+

    Feb 29, 2000
    Arsenal FC
    Eric Wynalda and Joe-Max Moore among others would beg to differ.

    Apparently Belgian club Royal Antwerp (that has a loan set-up with Manchester United for players) didn't get your email.
  22. TheSlipperyOne

    TheSlipperyOne Member+

    Feb 29, 2000
    Arsenal FC
    Kovalenko isn't an American citizen yet. And he plays way more as a midfielder and not a striker.
  23. GersMan

    GersMan Member

    May 11, 2000
    he's #2 on the list.

    Short Corner - Please, feel free to badger away. While the "five months on loan" concept is not what this (inthat potential doesn't hurt), I still say I want those two more. I recognize this is controversial perhaps to many, clearly to you, and I'm comfortable with that. Disagree to your heart's content and you make good arguments to support your positions.

    As long as we remain civil I'm happy to argue back and forth all you want :) (and yes, you may influence re future lists, as you have done in the past - althoughusually the way it works is I take a closer look at certain players when someone comes on and says they should be rated higher/lower.
  24. wu-tang beez

    wu-tang beez New Member

    Apr 19, 2002
    Irving, TX
    Dario Brose(sp?) played in France, so that means nothing. Yi sucks, you'll see when he washes out 2 the A-league.

    Dear '83 Chevette err I mean cavalier,
    Those stats prove my position, preki was a great player for his 1st few yrs when he came from the epl. Lassiter scored several goals 4 the nats, but had a hard time staying onsides. He still would've been better than Wegerly. SS had a difficult time evaluating tallent. Arce hasn't been the same since he got accused of gang rape a few yrs back. Then he got bounced around in trades. Moreno has suffered from injuries to himself and his partner Echescary.

    Karl I was going to say Kreis would be a perfect fit in the 5 hole behind Mathis and Donovan, but you tried to actually say Jovan, the 2nd most overrated player in the history of American soccer behind Wagner, was a good soccer player. I guess a lack of speed and competativeness don't fit into your equation.

    Excuses are like butts, everyone has one and they all.....however, Kreis and Ralston were never given a fair shake while others(wagner, Jovan, mais, deering, lagos, etc) have proven consistently they might be good club players but they choke on the big stage. Kreis was only given run late in the game and then out of position, even playing freakin defender. Ralston also hasn't been given the full 90 & ,when he did, it was in a torrential down pour.

    The defense rest your honor.
  25. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    I didn't say Jovan was good...I said he was better than Kreis.

    This is a distinction with a difference.

    Meanwhile, let me repeat: we don't have a hole player on our USMNT because, frankly, we don't have any horses who can play that positon...including Kreis.

    The prosecution wins.

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