News: Seleção General Discussion 2023 [R]

Discussion in 'Brazil' started by Ombak, Jan 20, 2023.

  1. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    #526 Ombak, Jan 4, 2024
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2024
    The Supreme Court has reinstated Ednaldo.

    https://ge.globo.com/futebol/notici...ednaldo-rodrigues-na-presidencia-da-cbf.ghtml

    A few notes from reading this:

    Gilmar Mendes has granted an order reinstating Ednaldo as President by vacating the lower court decision. This is a preliminary order and the case can still go to the court for a more thorough review by all the juges.

    On the one hand, he seems to hold that the courts can interfere in some cases, but he makes this decision despite that because of the potential harm to Brazilian football. In other words, it's not really a judicial rationale. He just says that to avoid harm while they argue the case he'll reinstate the President.

    This should allow Brazil to officially enroll all players in the pré-olímpico (for which the deadline is tomorrow). I genuinely don't know if there would have been an issue, but this is part of the justification. I suppose if the documents sent to CONMEBOL were signed by the interim President it could be an issue since he's not recognized by CONMEBOL. But if the documents just have to be signed by someone else in CBF who is usually responsible for that (like the coach, for example) that wouldn't be an issue anyways.

    There is one thin that's not raised in this article but that I read in December when the appeal was made. I can't remember if it was a Kfouri, PVC or Rizek column, but it pointed out that Gilmar Mendes benefited from a policy implemented by Ednaldo and that he should recuse himself due to a conflict of interest. Of course, he did not, he's the one who made this decision.

    The FIFA and CONMEBOL delegation are still expected to come to Brazil and I think there will still be a new election, though perhaps not as urgently (not necessarily before Jan 12). I don't think it's viable for Ednaldo to stay, even with this decision in CBF's favor, because of the support already established for the candidate from São Paulo, because of all the enemies' he made among sponsors and others and because it would probably generate more judicial battles. You never know, maybe he tries to stay, but I think this decision will just serve to help him "save face" at least in the eyes of some.
     
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  2. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
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  3. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Man ... I am not sure I have the patience to figure out the details of what's going on.

    "A CBF é o Brasil que deu certo"

    - Carlos Alberto Parreira, Mail 2014
     
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  4. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Yeah, I mean I should take a break from this shit and just let it play out.

    What we know for sure is: FIFA and CONMEBOL committee are still expected on January 8
    STF can still hear the case and confirm or change the judgment.

    Beyond that? It's all up in the air. Will there be elections now, after the committee meets with CBF? Who knows. If there are no elections, will there be more challenges? Will Ednaldo stay?

    If I were Dorival or Filip Luis or whoever they try to pick for those roles, I'd not sign with CBF until things are clearer. I suppose the only info relevant for on the field matters is that there won't be any issues with the pre-Olympic team.
     
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  5. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  6. Brazil_1500

    Brazil_1500 Member

    Nov 3, 2003
    NY
    This dude ednaldo is dumb as a rock, as long this dude is president of CBF things will not go well for us. The only good news for us is that ancelloti is not coming and he wouldn't be any different from pia.
     
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  7. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
     
  8. AGomes

    AGomes Member+

    Juventus
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2023
    FWIW, Mourinho says he or his Agent have not been contacted.
     
  9. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    If Dorival has any wisdom, he'll refuse the invitation that CBF is likely to send him unless the contract includes a guarantee that he will be the manager until the end of the 2026 World Cup, assuming he leads Brazil to the tournament. I would much rather he focus on SPFC.

    CBF has wasted an entire year. It should have sent out feelers to candidates even before the start of the 2022 World Cup given Tite had already made his decision to leave once the tournament ended known way ahead of time. Had CBF, for example, brought Dorival or Diniz himself immediately after the last World Cup, the results would probably have been less negative as the replacement for Tite would have had more time to work. Diniz has been humiliated and thrown under the bus, and while I disapprove of the team's results under him, in his defense, he had very little time to work.

    I have written here repeatedly my favorite was Abel Ferreira, and as Celito has made clear, Abel is not going to divide his time between Palmeiras and the national team. I don't blame him. But if CBF had been serious about a 4-year project en route to 2026, it should have held serious conversations with Abel and with other potential candidates as far back, I would say, as mid-2022.

    I have a feeling, though, that we will see either Dorival or Renato Portaluppi as manager of Brazil this year. I think they're both better than Diniz, but I'm not sure either is the best possible candidate at the moment - frankly, I would not oppose Tite returning, even though that is even more unlikely than Abel taking the job.
     
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  10. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Well, that was quick. Brazilian sports news portals are reporting that Dorival Júnior has given a "yes" to CBF and that he is, therefore, going to be the next manager of the national team; an official announcement is pending.

    I very much hope that as per the post I wrote preceding this one, that the contract includes a clause that no matter the results, if Brazil reaches the 2026 World Cup, that CBF will guarantee he stays in place as manager until the final match Brazil plays in that tournament.

    Dorival Júnior would probably have been a fine choice to replace Tite, but this one-year waste of time hurt Brazil in many ways. 2023's statistics are the worst we've had in an extremely long time, and as much as I rank Dorival Júnior over Diniz, I'm not sure he will bring back Tite-esque statistics in the win-loss column or in the goal differential we had from mid-2016 to late 2022.

    Still, all the drama and nonsense with CBF notwithstanding, from a stricly footballing perspective, this is a step in the right direction for the national team. The 2024 Copa América will be the time he will truly be able to build a team that can rise in WCQ rankings, assuming Brazil reaches at least the semifinals.

    As for SPFC.... this sucks. SPFC built a roster for 2024 based on his suggestions/demands and now he's leaving. Whatever chances we had of winning titles this year, those chances are at least for now lower. I really wanted to see this rebuilt SPFC in the Copa Libertadores with Dorival.
     
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  11. MerlinRM

    MerlinRM Member+

    May 5, 2014
    NorthEast USA
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I like the Dorival choice.
     
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  12. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Yep. I saw the rumors but was waiting for something more official since we got burned with so many rumors before.

    https://www.uol.com.br/esporte/colu...e-sera-novo-tecnico-da-selecao-brasileira.htm
     
  13. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The thing is, they did float names. The first one I remember was Mano which got rejection. When they floated Ancelotti most people including the media loved the idea. Even if we had to wait to get him. The rationale was that the first few WCQ games weren't important and we could do OK with an interim.
     
  14. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Honestly I feel sorry for Dorival, and Diniz, two guys who probably deserve the role, but find themselves being offered it by an incredibly incompetent administration. But since it's their dream job and they know it might be their only shot, they feel forced to say yes.
     
  15. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    This was a dirty move by Ednaldo. His situation as President isn't assured and he is making a commitment to a coach with a contract that I am assuming goes through the next WC. He could be out in February unless he has this all worked out behind the scenes. While the move to remove him may have been dirty, he has also shown that he has his own influence to swap power as everybody assumed he was basically out of the picture.

    Diniz probably thought he had a chance to stay on since Ancelotti turned the job down. He is probably disappointed although he didn't really have results to back up his case. He got a raw deal with so many key players getting injured accumulating a collection of negative records can't be glossed over. If I am Dorival I wouldn't take the job now. I would have told Ednaldo to come back when everything was resolved in February because things don't look right at the moment. I remember Muricy turned down the job because Teixeira didn't do things the right away. He placed his morals ahead of his dream. It's definitely a risk because you may never get that call again, but he is taking over a broken product right now.
     
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  16. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Just to illustrate for everyone how much of a mess the next few weeks could be: as far as we know the FIFA/CONMEBOL committee is still scheduled to visit CBF this week (starting tomorrow). Of course, now they don't have elections to supervise. No idea what they will discuss. Chances are they support Ednaldo, since all these parties are in bed with each other and enable each other.

    Then the STF could theoretically still hear the case. Would they remove Ednaldo? Possibly. But Gilmar Mendes, who reinstated him, has a conflict of interest and shouldn't have made the decision to take the case in the first place. And if they do reverse Mendes' decision, then FIFA and CONMEBOL would once again find themselves having to warn Brazil about court interference

    Let's say Ednaldo survives those two events. Then theoretically he'll be President until 2025. During the period he was removed he said he wouldn't be a candidate again and if he were reinstated he wouldn't aim for re-election in 2025. But he's made so many enemies, including sponsors of the national team, that if he isn't removed now, chances are there will be more challenges and more problems for his administration.

    As you said, the move to remove him wasn't exactly clean. Just like Gilmar Mendes at the STF has a conflict of interest, the Rio court has connections to the old administration (cronies of Del Nero and that group). Still, once all that went down, the simplest resolution would have been fresh elections this week (which probably would have been won by the SP Federation President), but now it looks like we'll get Ednaldo 2.0 trying to cover up all the things he did poorly or more drawn out disputes.
     
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  17. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    However disappointed I am as a SPFC fan that Dorival Júnior has now chosen to leave, SPFC is still a strong team and it will be a contender in all the tournaments it plays in this year. All I can do is hope SPFC finds a suitable replacement who is qualified and capable to guide the team into at least one championship victory.

    As for the national team, as much as I like you guys deride and lament the mess and confusion and the embarrassment (on and off the pitch) we saw throughout last year up to the Ancelotti renewal with Real Madrid and the way Diniz was fired, now that Dorival is the manager, we need to move forward.

    He is coming in at a time Brazil is at its worst shape in years if not decades - competitively, we haven't been in this much of a problem since the 2002 World Cup qualifying tournament. Even after the 2014 World Cup, Brazil didn't accumulate the statistics we had to endure in 2023.

    Other posters are most likely more up to date on the injury list situation which kept some of our key players unavailable during certain pivotal matches in 2023. And given the first half of 2024 will have nothing but friendlies, I would hope that the several months leading up to the 2024 Copa América will be enough for the most important players to heal if they haven't yet (and that's hoping, of course, no other high-priority player gets hurt). We already know Neymar won't be match fit in time for this summer's tournament here in North America, and that's something Dorival will have to work with.

    I personally rank Dorival below Tite, although Dorival is more experienced and better than Diniz. Dorival turned SPFC around last year and under him, SPFC eliminated major opponents en route to the Copa do Brasil title. I also somewhat see Dorival as an adherent of the "rice and beans" mentality, which isn't a reincarnation of 1974 Total Football, but it doesn't need to be if and only if it gets the job done. And in 2023, it got the job done aplenty.

    Let's see whom Dorival caps first - and what kind of a system he implements.
     
  18. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  19. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Do you think Dorival really turned São Paulo around ? The CdB title was definitely an accomplishment, but in the Brasileirão which is what IMO gives the best measure of how a team is doing you guys did more or less the same compared to the year before.
     
  20. Ombak

    Ombak Moderator
    Staff Member

    Flamengo
    Apr 19, 1999
    Irvine, CA
    Club:
    Flamengo Rio Janeiro
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
  21. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    Dorival stated to the roster upon his arrival that "this year, you will win a title." From what I recall, some players were surprised and incredulously so. What he did was to make the team more cascudo - a tougher mentality.

    In the Copa do Brasil, São Paulo defeated Corinthians - which has not been amont the best teams in Brazil in recent time, but it did get to the semifinals and Corinthians has historically been a difficult opponent. SPFC got through - after Corinthians won the first leg 2-1.

    To get past Palmeiras and Flamengo were not only sports victories, but those wins also made the team more confident. What your team has accomplished since Abel arrived needs no mention; Flamengo had a bad 2023, but despite the mess that followed Dorival's departure at the very end of 2022, Flamengo made it to the final and it had (and still has) excellent players.

    If anything, the 2023 Copa do Brasil title showed that Dorival is strong in mata-mata tournaments; this was his third Copa do Brasil victory. He is yet to win a Campeonato Brasileiro, although he did that in the segundona a while back.

    If he can instill a tougher mentality into the national team, all the more given the demoralizing results from 2023, that'll be a step in the right direction.
     
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  22. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    CdB title was great. I would surely not take anything away from it. And definitely what we need in the NT is mata-mata blood. The only thing is that a Cup title for a club can be a single even type of thing. For a bigger turn around, I always like to see improvement in the league. Not saying title wise, but definitely a climb in the table compared to the previous year.

    BTW ... what do you think of the MorumBis ? :D
     
  23. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    I do see why you focus on league vs. cup because WCQ is a league tournament - however, being the "campeão das eliminatórias da Copa do Mundo" doesn't mean much insofar predicting World Cup performance. 2002 is now a more distant memory, but that tournament proves my point.

    Given the World Cup has been expanded (a foolhardy decision by FIFA, but it's out of our control), the odds Brazil won't make it even if it's via playoffs are very low. Therefore, as long as we reach the 2026 World Cup, we'll be in contention. Will Dorival's Copa do Brasil magic transfer to this year's and to the 2026 tournaments? Time will tell.

    "MorumBis" - I think it's ridiculous.
     
  24. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I wasn't really saying from a "Is Dorival qualified for the NT point of view" ... he also won the Libertadores with Flamengo the previous year after all and he thought he had the job then. I was just curious about your opinion from a São Paulo perspective. They won the CdB which was a big title, but in the Brasileirão there was no real difference from last year from a points performance. If you guys hadn't won the CdB there is a good chance you wouldn't have reached the Libertadores and I think the season (and Dorival's work) would have probably been seen with different eyes. The media I follow was actually criticizing his work in the league after the CdB title. That's why I was asking your perspective a bit more.

    About MorumBis ... money is money and São Paulo needs it. But yeah I expect some jokes about it. They will also be getting some shows back in the stadium so that should help the club. That's something that has hurt the club in terms of revenue lost after a lot of shows moved to Allianz Parque. WTorre is also in talks to renovate the Morumbi by 2030. Which pisses me off because they supposedly owe us a lot of money.
     
  25. Century's Best

    Century's Best Member+

    Jul 29, 2003
    USA
    São Paulo has for a long time struggled; titles were very uncommon, and for the team Brazilian team which was first to to win the Libertadores three times and which also won a Campeonato Brasileiro three-peat in the 21st Century, we SPFC were anxious for a major title. Add to this drought the uncomfortable fact that until 2023, SPFC was the only major team in Brazil which had never won the Copa do Brasil (the other "big three" from the state of São Paulo had won it a combined 8 times; even teams which are historically less successful such as Paulista, Athletico Paranaense, Juventude had already won it), and SPFC needed a major breakthrough.

    Dorival was a huge part behind this breakthrough.

    As for SPFC after the Copa do Brasil, well, that tournament ended on September 24. The Campeonato Brasileiro lasted more than two months longer beyond that date. With a national title won, a long taboo broken, a direct group stage berth in this year's Libertadores assured, and a huge monkey off our backs, SPFC didn't theoretically need to exert itself drastically in the Campeonato Brasileiro. There was also a major personnel change: Calleri decided to undergo ankle surgery right after the title. He publicized the fact he'd been playing with an injury since the Campeonato Paulista match vs. São Bernardo in the first quarter of 2023. That surgery took place in early October and it was then announced he'd be out until this year, with a potential return date in the Supercopa vs. Palmeiras in early February 2024.

    Calleri was a major part of SPFC's offense in 2023, and without him, finishing very high in the league table became more difficult.

    Did the reporters who criticized him take Calleri's absence into consideration? Yes, he was only one player, but a major player and when a major player is no longer available and a suitable replacement isn't found right away, a team is likely to suffer. Fluminense may not have won last year's Libertadores if Cano had been out, and Dudu's absence may well have cost your team a participation in the Libertadores final.

    Finally, you said I may have seen Dorival's work differently if SPFC had not won the Copa do Brasil. Arguably, perhaps. But if SPFC lost on PKs to Flamengo after two very evenly balanced matches, would I say his work was "lixo?" What if SPFC hadn't even qualified for the round of 16? What if Palmeiras had goleado SPFC twice 6-0? All those scenarios are nothing more than speculation, and while all constitute defeats, a second place finish on PKs would have been far less worthy of being called "lixo" than being eliminated far earlier on.

    For Dorival, what happened in his favor is precisely the optics from two consecutive Copa do Brasil titles (and the 2022 Libertadores with Flamengo). Outside of Abel Ferreira, who else won that many national-level titles in the Primeira Divisão in recent years?

    In any case, as much as I hope SPFC finds a quality replacement for Dorival ASAP, let's also hope Dorival improves the national team's fortunes.
     

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