Saudi Arabia Pro League 18-19 assignments and discussion [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by balu, Nov 11, 2018.

  1. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Since there has been more and more discussion about Saudi Arabian assignments in the Premier League thread, and I find that really fascinating but don't want to take that thread off topic, I thought we might start a dedicated Saudi Arabian thread.

    Here are the latest assignments:

    09/11/2018

    Al-Ahli - Al-Qadisiyah
    REF: Damir Skomina (SVN)
    AR1: Jure Praprotnik (SVN)
    AR2: Robert Vukan (SVN)
    4OF: Matthew Conger (NZL)
    VAR: Tomasz Musiał (POL)

    10/11/2018

    Al-Faiha v Al-Ittihad
    REF: Matthew Conger (NZL)
    AR1: Tevita Makasini (TGA)
    AR2: Simon Lount (NZL)
    4OF: Ivan Bebek (CRO)
    VAR: Paweł Gil (POL)

    11/11/2018

    Al-Wahda v Al-Hilal
    REF: Paweł Gil (POL)
    AR1: Konrad Sapela (POL)
    AR2: Dawid Golis (POL)
    4OF: Fran Jović (CRO)
    VAR: Simon Lee Evans (WAL)

    Al-Ittifaq v An-Nassr
    REF: Damir Skomina (SVN)
    AR1: Jure Praprotnik (SVN)
    AR2: Robert Vukan (SVN)
    4OF: Ammar Ashkanani (KUW)
    VAR: Ovidiu Alin Hațegan (ROU)

    Skomina with two matches in three days.
     
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  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Some other referees who have worked this year already:

    Cakir
    Kralovec
    Thomsen (apparently a referee in the second Bundesliga)
    Evans (a Welsh referee who is seemingly living in Saudi Arabia now)
    Marciniak
    Mazic (who has spent more time in the Saudi and Chinese leagues than in the Serbian league this year)
    Kuipers
    Makkelie
    Soares Dias
    Hategan
    Kassai
    Bebek

    I know a Swiss referee has an assignment soon, too. And I've now heard rumors that an MLS referee has accepted an appointment as well.
     
    balu repped this.
  3. nylaw5

    nylaw5 Member

    Jan 24, 2002
    West Coast
    This is cool.

    Appreciate a league, or owners, that value officiating enough to pay for some of the world's best. Give the refs a nice paycheck & give some status to the league.

    For the MLS refs - if you are Stott, Toledo, Penso.......Geiger... why not?

    Players have capitalized on off-season or lower-tier leagues for years to make a little extra money. Good for the refs.

    China next up?
     
  4. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    How long have they been doing this, and do they do it for literally every match in the league?
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This year I believe it's been literally every match in the league and cup competitions. I haven't seen a single assignment with a Saudi official with the whistle or a flag (can't remember on FO position, but don't think one has been there either).

    The guest assignments have been going on for a decent while--few years, possibly coinciding with Webb's arrival, is my guess. But Clattenburg's arrival is what really accelerated it to the saturation level we see now.
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It is close to impossible to not cross into politics here, but let's just say my truthful answer is I can think of several non-soccer related reasons why an American referee shouldn't be going to Saudi Arabia.

    On the soccer-related front, however, self-preservation is a great reason to not go. With expansion and the long-held disposition that some in the MLS front office have toward our domestic referees, if you don't think MLS is looking at what the Saudis (and Chinese) are doing, you're kidding yourself. In the case of the Saudis, they literally are shutting out all of their own domestic referees from professional assignments. In six months we've gone from a Saudi referee trio about to attend back-to-back World Cups to not a single Saudi referee working first division professional matches in his own country.

    So, every time a foreign referee shows up in Saudi Arabia, they are stunting the growth of Saudi referees. Now, that's mostly okay from the European perspective because that will never happen to them in their own countries. But from a North American perspective? Different story. How easy will it be for MLS/PRO to tell PSRA, "well you guys are taking assignments overseas, why can't we hire overseas referees to come here?" Granted, there are all sorts of immigration and labor laws that might come into play, and I'm sure it would prompt a legal fight, but from a moral perspective it opens the door to the debate.

    As noted, China is also doing this for awhile, too, though not to the extreme extent the Saudis have gone. In fact, Ted Unkel was in China last season to do a cup final. Unkel had Chinese ARs, though.
     
  7. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I think this has been going on for over a decade. Maybe not in Saudi Arabia, but in the Middle East such as Kuwait and Qatar.

    I know Rosetti went and did games during the winter time. So did Busacca and De Bleeckere back in the day. I can't recall exactly which Arab oil state with a checkered history of human and civil rights violations.

    So it's been a common practice over there.

    The Arabs and the Chinese don't necessarily have an objective/mandate/goal like the MLS of "being one of the best leagues in the world."

    They basically want to have a "knock-off" version of the Champions League in their own backyard which includes right down to the referees they see on TV.

    MLS at least realizes they need to grow their own domestic talent pool in terms of players and officials (to an extent on the referees) if they want to achieve their goal.
     
  8. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I don't believe this to be the case, but it would be absolutely mind boggling if true, but are they flying in European referees just to be 4th officials for a weekend

    For example the Croats, Jovic and Bebek? I'm sure they have done middles in the league, but do they fly them out for one weekend just to do a 4th official?

    If that's the case, talk about a waste. You are taking the top officials from one country away from doing games in that country and flying them just to collect a check while, at the same time, hurting the development of your domestic officials by not giving them the opportunity to learn something (through shear osmosis) from working with some of the best referees in the world.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I read somewhere that Mazic has worked two games in the Serbian league so far this year. Two.

    Bebek has done a whistle. I don't believe Jovic has, but I could be wrong.
     
  10. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I would do the same if I was Mazic as well. Serbian football is not exactly the most well run, organized and safe league for officials.

    It really is quite staggering that he was able to achieve what he did internationally considering the state of Serbian domestic football.

    But your overall point stands, other than pure personal financial gain it is not good for the domestic game and the official to be doing this.
     
  11. tomek75

    tomek75 Member+

    Aug 13, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is just speculation on my part, but maybe the Saudis are trying to send a message to the domestic referees that the corruption that has happened in the past is not going to be tolerated.
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Corruption."
     
  13. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    #13 balu, Nov 24, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2018
    November 22

    Al Fateh 4-0 Ohod
    Mark Clattenburg (ENG), Jake Collin (ENG), Lewiss Edwards (WAL), Johnathan Bryant (WAL)

    Al Feiha 1-1 Al Hazm
    Damir Skomina (SVN), Jure Praprotnik (SVN), Robert Vukan (SVN), Joao Pedro Pinheiro (POR)

    Al Wahda 1-0 Al Batim
    Svein Oddvar Moen (NOR), Kim Haglund (NOR), Magnus Lundberg (NOR), Paulo Soares (POR)

    November 23

    Al Quasidiya 3-1 Al Raed
    Artur Soares Dias (POR), Rui Licinio Tavares (POR), Paulo Soares (POR), Joao Pedro Pinheiro (POR)

    Al Nassr 1-0 Al Shabab
    Pavel Kralovec (CZE), Martin Wilczek (CZE), Ivo Nadvornik (CZE), Viktor Kassai (HUN)

    Clattenburg back in action as center referee, Skomina does another match.
     
  14. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    So is the Saudi Arabian League now the league with the highest quality of refereeing in the world? :D
     
  15. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It looks like almost every center is or was a UEFA elite.
     
  16. MrPerfectNot

    MrPerfectNot Member+

    Jul 9, 2011
    Denver, CO
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "When you can afford to send the very best"
     
  17. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    November 24

    Al Faisaly 1-1 Al Hilal
    Viktor Kassai, Gyorgy Ring, Vencel Toth, Sandor Szabo (all HUN)

    Al Ittifaq 2-4 Al Taawon
    Tomasz Kwiatkowski (POL), Lewiss Edwards (WAL), Johnathan Bryant (WAL), Murad Al Zawahreh (JOR)

    Finally an unknown name in Kwiatkowski. Kassai is there again.
     
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There have been a few other unknown (i.e., non-UCL and non-WC) officials already. A lot of the VARs are also, relatively speaking, could be classified that way.
     
  19. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    November 25

    Al Ittihad - Al Ahli
    Milorad Mazic (SRB), Milovan Ristic (SRB), Dalibor Djurdjevic (SRB), Sandor Szabo (HUN)
     
  20. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    November 29

    Al Shabab - Al Ittifaq
    REF: Kevin Blom (NED)
    AR1: Rob van de Ven (NED)
    AR2: Rogier Honig (NED)
    4OF: Jeroen Manschot (NED)
    VAR: Edwin van de Graaf (NED)
     
  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wonder if there's any blowback from the domestic FAs of these referees or if they are involved in the formal requests for appointments.

    To my knowledge, Saudi Arabia isn't using referees from any of the leagues with full-time referees, so no problems about breach of contract or anything like that. But when Blom gets called by Clattenburg, does he say "yes" and tell the KNVB? And, if so, are their domestic ramifications for him saying "yes?" Or does the formal request go through the FA?

    Probably not something that can easily be learned. But would be interesting to know.
     
  22. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I still can't get over the fact that they are flying in 4th officials! Where do I sign up!
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right!

    I guess that's actually a big clue that they are probably going through the FAs, huh? Makes me wonder if the FAs are making money off this by allowing their referees to travel. Why else would, say, the Dutch be okay with regularly losing several of its top 10 officials at each position?
     
  24. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
  25. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    November 30

    Al Quadisiya 1-1 Al Faisaly
    Anastasios Sidiropoulos (GRE), Polychronis Kostaras (GRE), Lazaros Dimitriadis (GRE), Mohamed Jamal (BHR)

    Al Ahli 1-1 Al Feiha
    Damir Skomina (SVN), Jure Praprotnik (SVN), Robert Vukan (SVN), Danilo Grujic (SRB)

    Skomina's 4th match in the Saudi League this month and 9th match this season (compared to 8 matches in the Slovenian league).
     
    MassachusettsRef repped this.

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