Can I ask you what do you know about the Brazilian league or any other in South America back then, my dear Eurosnob?
A ranking that doesn't take into account WW2. I don't recall Amos Otis making the All-Star game nearly every year. The real problem is defense is terribly underrated (to a large extent, ingored). The box score will say Jeter got a double in Game 7, but in reality a good RF catches the ball. How many doubles and singles did Dom save? Hundreds and hunderds. Too bad you can't add that to his BA and he'd be a first ballot HOFer. Either way, it helps the team just as much. Spend a few minutes looking at defensive stats and you'll really begin to appreciate Dom.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Rush: "Pele Overrated Because He's Black" Let's see your list of top Brazilians, and your arguments, rather than a borrowed one.
LOL... I did see his card a page or two back. Looks like he was another one of those unfortunate Boston Dead Cox players. Whatever.
*shakes head* Red Sox marks....about a micrometer above Cub fans who think Ryne Sandberg belongs in the Hall of Fame. Dom DiMaggio only missed three seasons, and even had he played, he would only have gotten around 2,100 hits or so. That wouldn't have cracked the top 100 of all time. And let's face it, lots of guys missed time in World War II. That's how the St. Louis Browns and the Chicago Cubs won pennants. The single-season put-out record? Who cares? You want to put Scott Garlick in the FIFA Hall of Fame for the catch/punch record? And...attempting to get the conversation somewhere within the parameters of the original topic...until 1948, neither DiMaggio ever played against black players. This is a can of worms only a few people have opened, and I'm not expert enough in it to make a solid argument, except to say that's the only factor that would argue against Babe Ruth being the greatest player of all time. EDIT - let's see, best Brazilians of all-time...I'm no expert, but until Ombak or someone else weighs in.... Pele Leonidas Garrincha Arthur Friedenreich Socrates Jairzinho Romario Cafu Djalma dos Santos Zico Taffarel (someone's gotta play keeper)
I do, because it's crucially important. I'm sorry many baseball fans (and general managers) can't appreciate this. He's getting to around 90 more balls than avg CFers a season. Utterly amazing. Sorry if that doesn't tickle your fancy. As for total hits, that's pretty irrelevant, unless you consider TOTAL OUTS as well. The guy bat .298 and had an OBP of .383. He was the leading centerfielder of his day and a perennial All-Star. HALL OF FAMER. He'll get there someday. His biggest sin was having a super famous brother and being the guy playing next to Teddy Ballgame. Oh, and Ryne Sandberg was another great player who deserves to be in the HOF.
Of those only Garrincha merits comparison with Pele. The rest range from the great (just Leonidas, Dlajma Santos and Didi who should be included on any list of great Brazilians) to the totally unknow save patchy goalscoring records (Freidenreich). Romario simply does not belong on that list. It's impossible to argue against Pele being one of the best ever, but not unreasonable to believe that he is not the greatest without compare.
I know that the Brazilian league, and the other South American leagues (sans Argentina) were inferior to the top European leagues. Pele played on average 100 games a season. A man with his talent ought to have a high scoring average. For some reason people seem to think that I think Pele is crap. That couldn't be farther from the truth, he was a phenomenal player no doubt. I do think it's unfair to say he's the best of all time.
I don't blame Dom for anything. He was a good ballplayer. He couldn't cover 1/2 the ground that Willie Mays could and that's a cold, hard fact. You clearly don't know much about Mays and perhaps believe in Dom DiMaggio too much. 100 out of 100 baseball historians would rank Mays far ahead of Dom in every category. Your argument has no legs.
My argument has FACTS. Yours has sentiment, nonsense, and a helping of ignorance. Dom's CF Range 2.92 Mays' CF Range 2.57 Nice try.
I was talking about *fielding*. Ashburn was damned good as well. Mickey and the Duke weren't even close.
Based on what? What people tell you? The fact is that you don't know *#*#*#*# about the Brazilian and other South-American clubs and competitions of that time. You probably don't even know that Pelé's Santos won 2 times the world championship against your all-mighty european powerhouse AC Milan, when it was played in home/away series. Ah, and since you also place Argentina in another league inside SA, don't forget his team also defeated Boca Juniors. Jesus Christ, this thread = troll's dream come true. I'm outta here.
you can't prove a fielding argument with stats find one historian who ranks DD ahead of ashburn or mays when it comes to fielding
You can prove the only thing that matters, Dom got to more balls. Finding a "historian" that gets a hardon from watching 1954 WS video doesn't interest me anymore than someone who gets turned on by John Holmes. I remember the 1973 World Series Sey Oops. For what it's worth, you find a "historian" that has compared Mays with Dom at fielding. Mays hit more homers. Ashburn was a great fielder, no question about it.
so that's all that matters eh? not errors, not groundball pitchers, not assists, not the number of strikeouts, not size of the ballpark, not difficulty of catches? it's really cute that you have rallied behind dom dimaggio's HOF campaign, but i'm done with this
If Pele wasn't the greatest of all time, who was it? I'm assuming that Diego Maradona is best of all time then?!
If I were an AC Milan fan I'd give a shit about Santos beating them twice Wow, they beat Boca woop-de-fucking-doo. Since DC United beat Vasco in the InterAmerican Cup can we say MLS is better than the Brazilian league? Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
There are other factors that affect offensive stats as well, but Dom's numbers were ming-boggling. If you wan't to play that game, just toss all stats out the window and be a true soccer fan. I guess we can't prove Ozzie Smith and Bill Mazersoki were good fielders. Errors. Relatively unimportant. If a guy gets to 50 more balls, but makes 2 more errors, who cares? I wish Trot Nixon made few more errors but caught Derek Jeter's very catchable fly ball in the 8th. The box score says double. A better fielder would have had a PO in his stats. Assists are factored into range. I gave the formula above. 9 * (A + PO)/ Inn They're relatively uncommon. Still, Dom blows Mays away. Dom had one per 9.34 games while Mays was one per 14.57. It's not cute, it's about fairness. There are a lot of players I love that I won't get behind because they're not worthy. Dom not being in the Hall is a real shame.