All depends on how you look at the stats. Comparing all games played, Dunivant has a solid leg up in the race between the two Colorado locals (and former Rapids Reserve teammates) in league-wide competition when it comes to goals allowed average and shutouts: Borhcers: 18 GP, 22 GA -- 1.22 GAA -- 7 SO Dunivant: 25 GP, 27 GA -- 1.08 GAA -- 9 SO Looking more closely however, it's important to note that each player earned their first appearances for their club in midfield; Borchers against Chicago, Dunivant against Colorado on April 12. As they were not playing as defenders, it's only fair to take away their stats: AS A DEFENDER Borchers: 17 GP, 18 GA -- 1.06 GAA -- 7 SO Dunivant: 24 GP, 26 GA -- 1.08 GAA -- 9 SO Dunivant gets the edge in shutouts, but otherwise we're talking about two kids that seem to be making an equally huge impact on their teams' defenses. From a statistical point of view, it might come down to the wire between these two... could be the difference-maker is their remaining head-to-head challenge. Of course, with Ralph likely to continue his goalscoring tear it's unlikely that either of these defenders will get more than the slightest consideration. That said, the rookie defender with the best influence on his team's protection of the goal will really be the guy who gets farthest in the postseason.
I think another important part in this is the age old issue of MVP on the good team or the MVP on the team with the best results with him in the game. I think this tilts in Nats favor as the Rapids turn around come with Nats appearance, mostly. I don't have all the stats in front of me but this is a hunch.
Edge goes to Dunivant because he has 1 goal and 5 assists. A defender that can aid the offense is way more valuable.
I don't think you can use statistics to justify which defender is better, especially because Dunivant is an outside defender, while Borchers is a central defender. As far as goals allowed, well, defense is a team game. You could have Alessandro Nesta playing for Dallas, but they would still probably give up a significant number of goals because their overall defense is so poor. I honestly haven't seen enough games with Dunivant to say whether he is better or worse than Borchers, but I will say that I have been quite impressed with Nat's play this year. Nat has good positioning, reads the game well, rarely gets drawn out of position, has excellent timing on headers and tackles, and appears to communicate well with his teammates. In short, Borchers has done everything you could ask of a central defender. If Dunivant is better, he must be pretty damn good.
I dunno why you think Dunivant started that first game of the season in midfield. He's been Wade Barrett's replacement at left back the whole season. That's what he was drafted for. He's been on D all 25 games. We don't have any other left backs. Maybe you got that impression because he came up into the attack and scored in the game, but he did it from LB. I'll admit I haven't seen enogh of Borchers to judge, so my initial comment was probably unfair. Of course I meant to suggest that Todd deserves mention and evaluation if we're talking about who the best rookie defenders are this year. I'll certainly be paying more attention to Nat due to your enthusiastic support for his play. Of course in terms of up and coming defenders, the one we're proudest of, for filling some very big shoes in central-D last year during WC and injuries, is Eddie Robinson. He's got to be considered a very strong candidate to play some WC Qualifiers for Bruce Arena next year. DougO
Dunivant's on a team that had a good defense last year without him. He stepped in and has proven himself, but you have to wonder how many goals SJ would give up with another player in there. Nat, on the other hand, stepped into a defense that was giving up too many goals, and didn't seem very settled. Since his insertion we've had a very tough defense. What is more the defense has gained a degree of poise that didn't have prior to Nat's insertion. Providing that sort of lift is big time for a rookie central defender. On the one hand we have a very good defender that didn't hurt an already solid defense. On the other we have a very good defender who has lifted an ailing defense. Dunivant wins points on the sexy stats (goals and assists), but Nat gets my vote for the overall category.
Dunivant has started every game for the Quakes this season at LB including his first against the Rapids on April 12th. http://www.mlsnet.com/games/03/tracker.php?gamename=04122003_SJCOL&version=recap http://www.sjearthquakes.com/press_box/041203review.htm
he gets it Finally somebody gets it. The issue is how much did either guy mean to their teams. SJ was going to be good anyway and Colorado sucked on the D prior to Nate stepping in a shoring up a pretty bad back line. The season completely turn around when he starting playing. Dunivant is an outstanding player but he was basically along for the ride with the SJ group, he didn't have to carry a big part of what they have accomplished.
The only reason I brought out statistics was in response to DougO's original statement that Dunivant has started every game this season for "the best defense in the league," an opinion which is based on statistics. That's why my closing comment is what I think everyone agrees is all that matters: As for whether Dunivant played in defense or midfield against the Rapids in the season opener, I wrote that because my memory of that game was that Dunivant was playing more of a midfield role than a defender, and then confirmed it by looking at the lineups on MLSnet and coloradorapids.com -- both of which list Dunivant 6th. That means he was either a midfielder in a 4-x-x, a defender in a 5-x-x (which the Quakes didn't play that night), or that the lineups were not listed properly in the official game reports. That said, if you take the reported lineup to be in error, from a statistical standpoint the difference is minimal at best -- 1.08 versus 1.0833. AS A DEFENDER Borchers: 17 GP, 18 GA -- 1.06 GAA -- 7 SO Dunivant: 25 GP, 27 GA -- 1.08 GAA -- 9 SO
Re: he gets it Except that there was no reason to think going into this year that the San Jose defence would be any good. They lost Wade Barrett and Jimmy Conrad and had to coordinate with a new GK since Joe Bazooka left. I think the performance of San Jose, in light of these defensive losses is a big surprise this year.
Borchers Hands Down... Central Defense, that's all you have to look at! Apples and Oranges... Does Dunivant leaving the LB position in San Jose make a huge impact on the CupQuakes season... most likely not... Borchers not being in the middle of the defense... We're FVCKED... Borchers...
From what I've seen of both of them in person and versus DCU, Borchers seems to win out. As has been said, he didn't have the supporting cast, he elevated the play around him. Oh, and versus NE on national TV, he was a stud.
Borchers continues to get more pub. This time, Soccer America and SI. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/soccer/09/30/borchers.rapids.sa/index.html
I didn't get to see the Chicago game last night, but even on their board they know who shut 'em down last night: I said I'd be watching for him, can't wait to see our last matchup against you with both Dunivant and Borchers on the field at the same time. DougO
Dunivant's a nice player but Borchers is a much better defender than Todd. Dunivant often gets burned to the line or on overlaps - not repeatedly, but often enough to be dangerous. Borchers almost never gets burned or makes a mistake. He's become a monster. Of course, Dunivant gets forward much better and more often than Thor, and floats in a nice cross (as well as having a great throw-in).
come on now borchers is my boy. he is one of two, maybe three, guys deserving of roty. sadly, i believe ralph will win because he scores goals instead of preventing them. bug is definitely a screaming success and deserves some recognition, actually a lot of recognition. hes not the sole reason this team has done a 180, but he has definitely helped shore up a backline that was soft. his breakout, along with spencer, chungy, and scotty has assuredly been one of the reasons this side is doing so well. fraser and powell have been throwing everything at him too. combine that with the knowledge and talent he already had, the national squad is gonna be glad they rang him up. hopefully man u now rings him up after the horrid performance they put forth yesterday against stuttgart! BORCH for roty! tha cmac