Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Amen finally someone aside from me (I mentioned the same thing in "The Beautiful Game board under World Player of the Year) has the courage to mention this. For all his hoopla that he's getting in Europe for Barca, for a player of his calibre I haven't seen anything even remotely duplicated for the Selecao. Rivaldo was roasted many a time for Brazil when he played, which I think was a bit harsh considering the hat-trick vs. Argentina, and the brace vs. Denmark at WC98. I think only because we're near the top of WCQ's and defending World/Copa champions that Ronaldinho's been able to avoid any critiques. Adriano's been more impressive for Brazil than Ronaldinho has, and has been just as impressive for Inter as Ronnie has been for Barca. To call him a underachiever is a bit harsh because Brazil isn't exactly struggling to make WC06, but overrated I'd have to say yes, at least for Brazil.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? i agree that he is somewhat of an underachiever. his national team displays dont match his club ones, but he is not as bad as others such as henry. i would like him to step it up and hope he does, but we will have to see. i wouldnt put it down to a tactical issue or anything.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? I think Ronaldinho Gaucho did fine in 2002, making some importsnt passes and an ever important goal against England. Did you see his goal this year against Haiti? (Sure your gonna say its HAITI..but if it was say Donovan scoring that goal against Haiti he would be genious! ??) In 2006, I think Ronaldinho Gaucho will terrorize the WC. I think his prime is yet to come. Remember, Ronaldinho Gaucho...a native of Porto Alegre. Viva Porto Alegre.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? i agree that he did fine in 2002, i just believe he isnt as good for the selecao as for barca.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? But all of you guys do agree that he should be in the starting 11?
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Of course. Its that he neither scores nor sets up scorers at the same rate during meaningful Selecao games that bothers me (will try and post some numbers to verify my impressions). The fact that he won the WC doesn't change the basis of the thread. Or that he scores a pretty goal here and there (I'm not discounting at all the Haiti goal, just wish the great stuff wasn't solely reserved for friendlies). IMO, he's Michael Jordan with his club, and Ray Allen for the Selecao. Ray Allen is of course an excellent player....but you get the point....I'm holding him to a higher standard. Can anyone name a single world beater display in the WCQs? Two? If you disagree, tell me what I am missing. I'm willing to accept that I am viewing it all wrong. For those who agree with me, why do you think it is so? Is he subjugating his talents in deference other superstars?
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Perhaps he's really sensitive for jetlags? Was he good at the copa America?
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? 50 caps at 24 years old = a thoroughbred. Has also played throughout the junior levels. Much more to do though to be lisfted to the plateau where only great players reside. Ronaldo of Real is waiting for him to join...............
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Privately, I've been asking myself why Ronaldinho has not been able to replicate his club form at n/t level. I guess the problem is that he needs a team built around him, where he is the focal point as was the case at PSG and now in Barcelona.The fact that he has people like Ronaldo in the same team, a bigger personality certainly than him might be the reason...as Tpmazembe avers....he probably defers to him and this has tended to blunt/constrain his displays for the Selecao.... It's is probably a mental thing..........he just needs to unwind and let it go and only then will he be able to do what we know he can do!
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Freedom. IMO he doesn't seem to have the same kind of freedom for the Selecao that he does at Barcelona, and Parreira isn't exactly sure where he wants to put him. Forward or behind the two strikers - what does he want to do? I don't think he's been bad for the Selecao or even mediocre. Just not that influential. He'll sort it out.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? With Ronadinho, like many Brazilian players, its all about freedom. This question of club v country form is very similiar to that of Rivaldo. Actually it was the same question with the same team. Ronaldino for Barca is a playmaker. Like Rivaldo (before the Van Gaal blowout) he isn't held to one specific tactical task. Rivaldo was brilliant for Barca when he roamed (like that last-gasp bicycle-kick to put them in the CL). When he had to be more "fixed" he's not as effective. Big Phil understood that and got the best out of Rivaldo at the 2002 WC. But after him, can you really remember any Brazilian WC playmakers??? Alex was like that in the Copa America. Zico in 1982, but that's it for recent history. CAP's "playmaker" in 1994 was Dunga, of all people, a defensive midfielder. I think coaches don't like it because when the playmaker doesn't go, the wole team falls apart. See Totti/Italy 2004, 2002, and Zidane/France 2004, 2002. Can a team also with Ronaldo, Adriano, Julio Baptista, Alex, and Kaka give Ronaldinho free reign?? or should it be a more traditional team concept (which CAP likes)?? I hope Brazil figures it out, because its incredible to watch Ronaldinho; he's like great functional art.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? I would apply this theory 2 the whole team...they are simply doing just enough 2 get through and becos we expect the spectacular from players such a Gaucho he appears 2 b under achieving.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? I don't see many South American world cup qualifiers, but perhaps it is a motivation factor? I mean everyone knows Brazil are going to qualify anyway at 80 percent, not to be disrespectful to other south american teams, but with 5 world cup berths virtually its a dead cert.Why would he need to step it up?
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? I do not think that is the case any more... * the arduous journey that was qualification to the 2002 finals was a very hard lesson. Brasil would be least inclined to go that route once again. * As for motivation I think the simple fact that you're called for duty with the Selecao should be motivation enough.No place is guaranteed and believe me everyone would die to wear the yellow jersey...competition for places is stiff and if you spurn the opportunity it might never come again.I fear for Alex and may be Rivaldo who were given chances before BUT now seem to be out of favour(though for completely different reasons).
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? We have got to go to La Paz, BA and Montevideo = nil points!
Ronaldinho scoops World Soccer Player of Year award LONDON, Dec 9 (Reuters) - Brazilian Ronaldinho was named World Soccer magazine's Player of the Year on Thursday with Jose Mourinho winning Manager of 2004 and Greece taking the Team award. Barcelona's Ronaldinho came top with 28.6 per cent of the readers' poll, beating Thierry Henry of Arsenal (22.2 per cent) and Andriy Shevchenko of AC Milan. http://football.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,14546,-4663325,00.html
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Respectfully, moose, that is not the question posed as thread starter. If you are using Ronaldo's performance as a comparison to Ronaldinho's fine; but it still does not indicate your perception of Ronaldinho's performance vis-a-vis his own talent, or effectiveness at Barca (the premise of the thread). Moreover, even if he is doing more, or better, than Ronaldo, he could still be coming up short -- they could both be subpar. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on Ronaldinho with the Selecao.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? More than one football observer sees a measurable difference in Gaucho's club and NT performance. Here is one opinion as to why (Tostao's): http://www.lainsignia.org/2004/noviembre/soc_015.htm [bracketed items are my editorials] -------------------------------------------------------------------- Jose Trajano já disse que, se o Ronaldinho Gaúcho jogasse na seleção o maravilhoso futebol que mostra no Barcelona, mereceria uma estátua em cada estádio brasileiro. As justificativas para essa diferença de qualidade são que Ronaldinho, por ser o grande craque do Barcelona, tem mais liberdade e confiança para criar; que ele está mais entrosado com os companheiros do time; que o esquema tático da seleção brasileira o prejudica; que ele tem menos motivação para jogar na equipe nacional e que atua mais à frente no Barcelona, como afirmou o próprio jogador. Jose Trajano [Brasilian pundit and sports columnist] opined that if R.Gaucho played for the Selecao the marvelous football he shows with Barcelona, he would merit a statue in every Brasilian stadium. The justifications for the difference in quality have come down to: being the superstar at Barcelona, he has more liberty and confidence to create [Alex_1's point]; that he is more in-tune with his teammates; that the Selecao’s tactical scheme does not suit him; that he has less motivation to play for the Selecao; and that he plays further forward with Barcelona, as the player himself has expressed. Trajano, como bom observador, crítico e com razão, não se convenceu com nenhuma dessas explicações. Trajano, as a good observer, is critical of these, and with reason, and is not convinced by any of these explanations. Tenho mais uma explicação, que é a de o Ronaldinho jogar no Barcelona pela esquerda, onde sempre gostou de atuar desde o início de sua carreira no Grêmio. Não tenho a pretensão de convencer o Trajano, pois também não tenho certeza de nada. I have one more explanation [remember, all of these are Tostao's words], that Ronaldinho plays for Barcelona on the left, where he has always liked to play ever since his debut with Gremio. I don’t have the intentions to convince Trajano, since I’m not sure myself. Pela esquerda, Ronaldinho Gaúcho recua para receber a bola, fica de frente para o marcador, tem uma ampla visão do conjunto para dar seus ótimos passes e pode ainda driblar para a linha de fundo ou para o meio e finalizar. Na seleção, quem ocupa o lado esquerdo é o Ronaldo, de onde parte em diagonal para receber a bola em velocidade. From the left, RGaucho retreats to receive the ball, faces his marker, has a wide vision of the team to provide his wonderful passes, or can dribble to the end line or to the middle to finalize. However, with the Selecao its Ronaldo occupies that space [on the left], from where he likes to run in diagonal to receive the ball. No time brasileiro, Ronaldinho Gaúcho atua mais pelo meio, onde fica muito de costas para o gol, com pouco espaço, e é marcado por vários volantes e zagueiros. Se ele recua demais para receber a bola, fica longe do gol e deixa o Ronaldo isolado. In the brasilian team, RGaucho plays more through the middle, where he plays a lot with back to goal, with little space, and man marked by various volantes and central defenders. If he retreats too far to receive the ball, he ends up far from the goal and leaves Ronaldo isolated. É apenas mais uma explicação. No futebol, há explicações demais. Nenhuma explica tudo. O futebol é maior do que as explicações. As coisas são como são e não como queremos que elas sejam. This is but one more explanation. In football there are inumerous. None explain it all. Football is greater than explanations. Things are as they are, and not how we would like for them to be. ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? I was not drawing any comparison between the two. The whole Ronaldo thing has been bothering me and I needed to vent a little. I am curious to hear your thoughts on the "fat-omeno" As for Ronaldinho Gaucho, the entire Brasilian team has suffered from a World Cup hangover. I don't know how many games in the last two years I have honestly sensed any intensity from our team. I think this silly format for the qualifiers has plenty to do with that. We play one game every once in a while, buried in the middle of the club season. The players fly from Europe and arrive a couple of days before the game. They hardly practice together. Because of injuries, suspensions, etc... it is usually a different lineup for every game. The whole situation is just not conducive to playing good soccer. I also think coaching plays a big part. I have noticed a lot of our players perform better for their clubs than the national team. I understand this is natural to some extent because the players practice every single day with their clubs, so they will have a better chemistry with their teammtes. But I also think European coaches do a better job of playing to player's strengths. CAP seems to pick a formation and force players to fit into his scheme. Just about every player on our team performs a different role for selecao than for his club. The secret to Ronaldinho's success at Barca is that he is not a midfielder or striker, he is a left winger. He spends virtually the entire game hugging the left sideline and has open spaces to perform his magic. For Brasil, he is stuck in the middle of the field with all this congestion. I spoke about this after the Colombia debacle. Brasil's only true #10 in the classic sense is Alex, but he is not one of CAP's favorites so Parreira will try to improvise Ronnie or Kaka in that role, and neither is all that comfortable. Ronaldinho is a brilliant player, probably the best in the world, but he's always treading that line of being a little bit of a circus act. I think he feels pressure every time he touches the ball to do something spectacular. It is something players of this ilk must deal with. How to utilize their skills in a productive sense. He seems to do a better job of this with Barcelona than with the selecao, but I think that has much to do with the factors I mentioned above. So to make a long story short, I agree his form for the selecao has been below his form for Barca, but it is not all that surprising or alarming to me. I would be more worried if I thought he was feeling the weight of the jersey (ala Henry, Del Piero), but it is much more an issue of tactics and preparation. I would wait and see when Brasil plays in a big tournament, possibly 2005 Condef. cup, or we may have to wait until WC 2006. Let's see the team have some time to practice together and play a sequence of games together. It will also give CAP more time to hopefully figure out a formation that suits the players better. I would be shocked if Ronaldinho doesn't perform.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Thanks, bro. A well articulated post. I agree with you on CAP's rigidity. I also agree with the general let down in a some of the players, but not all. I disagree with your (and Tostao's) position about the left wing. When Gaucho played for PSG the brother was front and center as support striker, sometimes even playing at centerforward. He was more of a goal scoring threat then than he is now at the NTs. Plus, when I do see him take over games for Barca is when he roams the whole front line and leaves the sideline. Rivaldo used to do the same, when Van Gaal had him play winger (which he despised), he would become his devastating best when he unchained himself from that sector. Not saying he is not more comfortable coming in from the left, but when I see Gaucho disappearing from games at Barca, its when he's hanging out on that left sideline like a prospecter protecting his claim. I like Gaucho much more down the middle (left or right) and going wide when necessary (as opposed to the alternate). Plus, when he played at WC'02, though he and Rivaldo often changed wings, wasn't Dinho usually the rightsided leg of the triumvirate? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- As for Ronaldo, he has underperformed at club level this '04-'05 season to date, though his goal tally is not too shabby compared to other La Liga strikers. Though silent lately, on the balance of '04's WCQs he has outshone both Dinho and Kaka IMO. As for his weight, he is slimmer than last season, or the season before when he bagged a bunch of goals in La Liga. So, I'm not sure that the weight is the main issue. Maybe its his impending marriage. I'm not sure. To your point, he's definitely not as fearful a striker as just 6 months ago. CAP should probably sit him out a game for a hungrier Adriano to send a message.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Ronaldinho Gaúcho apareceu para o país no articulado Grêmio de Tite, como um jovem talentoso capaz de criar espaços para seus companheiros brilharem. Disciplinado taticamente e habilidoso como só os craques o são, logo ele colheu os benefícios dessa sua postura e foi reconhecido como o brilhante maestro de um time que, no seu conjunto, era pouco mais que medíocre. O Grêmio era ele, afinal. Do time gaúcho para o conjunto nacional o caminho era evidente. Os brasileiros, em sua maioria, queriam vê-lo com a camisa amarela para ter o direito de também torcer por ele, privilégio até então reservado aos azuis do Rio Grande. Sua estréia na Seleção, na Copa América de 1999, no Paraguai, sob o comando de Vanderlei Luxemburgo, foi seu primeiro momentum de repercussão nacional. O gol malabarista contra a Venezuela encheu os olhos de todo o país e eclipsou o fato de que, afora a jogada genial, ele pouco fez. Mas é óbvio que não se poderia cobrar daquele menino a postura do homem que ainda não era. Vestir a camisa amarela é algo como um rito de passagem. É o maior dos testes (e também o mais desejado) para (e por) qualquer jogador brasileiro. O fato, contudo, é que Ronaldinho teria, desde aquela gloriosa noite em que se transformava na nova grande promessa do futebol brasileiro, somente mais um momentum pela Seleção, este na Copa do Mundo de 2002, precisamente contra a Inglaterra. E que momento! Aquele foi o grande jogo de futebol da Copa do Mundo, não apenas porque estavam em campo Brasil e Inglaterra (o duelo mais elegante do futebol mundial desde sempre), mas principalmente porque ali se decidiria (como previram corretamente os que têm intimidade com os caprichosos deuses da bola) o futuro campeão do mundo. Pelo que fez durante aquele jogo, Ronaldinho mereceria a gratidão eterna de cada um dos brasileiros que amam o esporte bretão. É essa gratidão, a alimentar a expectativa em torno de novas exibições de gala, que age como dique para as críticas dos brasileiros a respeito de seu pífio desempenho como titular canarinho nos dias que correm. Ronaldinho Gaúcho tem vigorosos defensores, na imprensa e em fóruns de discussão como este, verdadeiros evangelistas que jamais se cansam de relatar seus feitos clubísticos e justificar suas falhas como titular absoluto da Seleção. Ele, de fato, merece esse gênero de defesa apaixonada, legítimo representante que é de um futebol que parecia perdido na miragem do tempo, capaz de unir a fantasia das jogadas plasticamente perfeitas com a efetividade de seu resultado. Ele é, em pessoa, o futebol arte. Mas o que se passa, afinal, com Ronaldinho Gaúcho quando, atualmente, veste a camisa da Seleção? Onde anda aquele disciplinado menino do Grêmio, capaz de colocar seu talento individual a serviço de um jogo coletivo encantador? O terreno movediço das explicações ligeiras só acrescenta mais dúvidas a essa discussão. É fácil, para qualquer torcedor (travestido de analista ou não), aceitar a explicação pouco convincente de que o esquema tático da Seleção o prejudica. Afinal, que fragilidade é esta que afeta apenas a ele, o único mágico do time amarelo? Sim, porque todos os jogadores da Seleção atuam em times cujos esquemas de jogo são diversos daquele adotado por Carlos Alberto Parreira. Mas apenas Ronaldinho Gaúcho parece sofrer os efeitos dessa misteriosa enfermidade tática. Eu não acredito que as explicações simples auxiliem alguém na tortuosa tarefa de tentar entender o que acontece com esse menino. Todos, absolutamente todos, os brasileiros gostariam de ver ele fazer pela Seleção o que faz no Barcelona. Deus meu (!), na Seleção ele tem companheiros de nível técnico e inteligência dentro de campo muito superior àquelas dos seus colegas de Barcelona. Na Seleção ele tem a possibilidade de escrever seu nome entre os grandes da história do futebol brasileiro. Ao vestir a camiseta amarela, enfim, ele é retirado da multidão dos comuns para se tornar alguém especial, quase único para 180 milhões de pessoas. O técnico da Seleção Brasileira, seja ele quem for, pode fazer tudo por Ronaldinho Gaúcho. Só não pode entrar em campo e jogar por ele. Nos dias que antecederam o jogo entre Paraguai e Brasil pelas atuais eliminatórias, a imprensa brasileira pôs-se a debater quem era o melhor jogador nacional. Ronaldo já estava re-estabelecido como gênio da raça, prodígio de uma geração. Ronaldinho caminhava célere para se tornar um dos grandes do planeta. E Kaká enfeitiçava os italianos pelo Milan, ganhando mais e mais aplausos pela sua consistência tática e brilho individual. O debate inócuo redundava na conclusão unânime de que, pouco importando quem fosse o melhor, os três compunham o melhor time do mundo – no papel. Contra a Colômbia, no primeiro jogo das eliminatórias, Ronaldinho não pôde participar. Kaká foi magistral e desfez as dúvidas da torcida e da imprensa sobre a necessidade de o Brasil tê-lo como titular. Na segunda partida, contra o Equador, Ronaldinho voltou, ciente de que o lugar de nova estrela começava a ser ocupado pelo seu “rival” do Milan. Aparentemente tentou, com malabarismos estéreis, mostrar quem era o gênio do time. No jogo contra o Paraguai, viria o tira-teima. E nesse jogo insinuado de vaidades, quem perdeu foi o Brasil. Para quem costuma assistir a um jogo de olho não apenas na bola, mas principalmente no que acontece nas suas cercanias, ficou evidente a má vontade de Ronaldinho para com seu companheiro Kaká. Poucos sabem se posicionar em campo como o menino de Brasília. Esse é seu grande trunfo quando não vem com a bola dominada do meio-campo em direção à grande área. Naquele jogo não foi diferente. Kaká estava, assim como Ronaldo, bem posicionado em várias ocasiões. Mas, ao contrário do jogador merengue, raramente estava sob forte marcação - pobres adversários, ao serem obrigados a escolher entre anular Ronaldo e qualquer outro, optam sempre pela primeira alternativa. Mas isso parecia não importar para Ronaldinho. Dono da posição de atacante no papel, ele é o verdadeiro mestre das jogadas de armação. E, nessa condição, preferiu, na absoluta maioria das vezes, rifar a bola na fogueira da marcação cerrada sobre Ronaldo a direcioná-la ao desmarcado Kaká. Obviamente, quando contrariou a própria regra, o que se viu foi uma jogada maravilhosa e, claro, produtiva. A declaração política parecia clara. A vaidade individual, na maioria das vezes, impediria o brilho coletivo. Já contra o Haiti, num amistoso sem a presença de Kaká, Ronaldinho usou e abusou dos passes para os companheiros marcarem gols e das jogadas de brilho individual, o que inclui uma das mais belas já feitas em anos recentes no futebol mundial. Há algumas conclusões possíveis a partir da observação responsável do comportamento de Ronaldinho com a camisa da Seleção. Mas quero deixar claro que não acredito haver animosidade entre ele e Kaká ou qualquer outro jogador da Seleção. Contudo, Ronaldinho evidentemente deseja ser reconhecido como o maior representante de uma liga solitária, um fora-de-série entre os foras-de-série, o fazedor de reis que, com suas jogadas, transforma um esforçado atacante africano no goleador da liga espanhola. Na Seleção ele jamais poderá fazer isso. O técnico da Seleção Brasileira deve, antes e acima de tudo, ser um pastor de egos. Esse foi, sempre, o grande mérito de Zagallo. Essa é, sem dúvida, a principal qualidade de Felipão. Essa foi a característica que fez de Dunga, dentro de campo, um capitão excepcional. É do técnico da Seleção a espinhosa tarefa de colocar esses meninos em seus devidos lugares. Ao vestir a camisa amarela, devem lembrar sempre que os objetivos individuais só podem existir se servirem a um propósito maior. Na minha opinião, cabe a Ronaldinho amadurecer. É uma questão de tempo. Ao menos, assim espero.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? Ronaldinho's not strictly playing on the left at Barca. As a matter of fact he is free to roam. The critical gollasso he scored against Milan was when he was on the right and floated into the centre to pick up the ball and thereby bamboozling Nesta and scoring on him. Frankly the problem is that on ANY team except the Selecao Ronaldinho's the greatest player thus everything revolves around him. However on the Selecao they have equal calibre players at almost all attacking positions. Ergo the impetus to build around him isn't as strong. I hate to say this but the Brasilians require a Coach such as Phil Jackson, meaning one who knows how to cater to the strength of his stars. BTW I meant Chicago Bulls PJax not the inflated ego LA version. As for Ronaldo, the guys letting himself go. I burned candles for him when he injured himself and I consider myself amongst his greatest fans worldwide. I've travelled to Japan, and to Europe from the States to watch him play. However he needs to get into physical shape, the guy's doing a Shaq(as I continue with b'bal analogies).
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? I'm also a HUGE fan of Ronaldo. Like I said, I go to a sportsbar every week just to watch him play. But I have to call a spade a spade. He looks like a complete fool. The guys is a whale. And I respectfully disagree with Tpmazembe, his form has been declining for a couple of years and it is all about the weight. He is very cagy and knows his way around the box so he can still score goals, but I don't want him to become Dada maravilha. He used to be more than just a goal poacher. He was relentless and could dominate games. I still think he is capable of being that kind of player. He is still the most talented player in the world, but he needs to give himself a chance to maximize his abilities.
Re: Ronaldinho Gaucho: Underachiever w/ Selecao? I agree, when's the last time that he scored a gollasso by picking up the ball in the midfield and going at people? Or when's the last time he scored from outside the box by taking people on? He's doing a Shaq. Just getting away by being so dominant. Not really doing things to his full potential. Really sad. I got GolTV and to see him week in week out doing that stuff is really sad.