That was one hell of a good time to show up though. With him injured in 02 they were completly useless, maybe that is a reflection of his significance to the team, or just a coincidence.
No one questioned whether or not the Barca fans wanted him to succeed as they obviously did. On the other hand it was Van Gaal that was indifferent to Riquelme and made no efforts to hide that. As Volrath pointed out, Riquelmes best matches were when he drifted inside to his natural position. This obviously didn't sit well with Van Gaal as he clearly wanted his system in tow at all times. You actually have the nerve to question anyones futbol IQ or general knowledge of the game. What are 15?
This is a discussion, if you can't handle it, then you need to take your immaturity elsewhere. If you cant handle someone 'questioning your knowledge of the game' which sounds ridiculous in itself, then you need to grow up. As for Riquelme, even when he drifted in the middle with barca he was ineffective. Any way you slice it, both european clubs he played for ended up wanting to sell him. That's not a sign of someone who should be considered as one of the all time greats
Very good of you to acknowledge that this is a discussion. A discussion involves an exchange of ideas, opinions, facts and when all is said and done an agreement. You unfortunately as Teso pointed out refuse to acknowledge anyone else's contribution so why should we bother dealing with you is a mystery. As for my inability to handle my futbol knowledge questioned, go back and lock at my posting history and you'll notice how easily I acknowledge either being wrong or an acceptance of anothers views. As for the full spectrum of knowledge within the game, I just wont justify that question with a response. Now onto the discussion at hand. How was Riquelme ineffective in the middle for Barca if the only gols and handful of assists came while playing in said location? Riquelme got his majority of minutes as a sub while at Barca. For a player of his particular style that relies on dictating the tempo of a game, how do you expect him to come in and be instant energy? You could expect that from a Messi or Robinho type player but not one of Riquelmes style. As we move along on your exhibition of futbol knowledge, lets talk about how Villarreal wanted to sell Riquelme. Fernando Roig made it clear his preference was to sort things out as he saw both parties (El Chileno/Roman) responsible. He further made it clear that he did not want to sell Riquelme but in the end thought it was the best decision for the coach and club and not a reflection on either. Pelligrini is an excellent coach so he needed to be supported even if he and Riquelme couldn't work out their issues. As for Barca, new coach with a particular system in mind and the maturity to know Riquelme wasn't the type of midfielder he needed. Again his being sold wasn't an issue of quality but needs. That there is the reason Rijkaard is a respected players coach. Why punish the player for being a victim of circumstance? Barca knew he was a great player because they put clauses in the transfer deal with Villarreal that got them 20% of any future transfer as well as millions for his European appearances. If most clubs were to put those types of stipulations into any one players transfer, how many clubs would bite? Villarreal is making it so difficult for Riquelme to leave because they know that to not lose their ass, they would have to get some large monies to not be ass raped in the end. Now feel free to refute as we're sure you will in the manner of a six year standing in the corner arms crossed and stamping his feet. I wouldn't expect anything less from you.
Nice long-winded way of saying 'both clubs ended up wanting to get rid of Riquelme'. You can sugar-coat it all you like, whether it was a change in style of play, coaches not getting along with him, etc, at both clubs they wanted to sell him. This happened during Riquelme's prime, something that is practically unheard of for the best players in the world to actively be traded by their teams because of tactical reasons. As for playing with barca, I never questioned if he was more effective playing in the middle or outside, get that through your head. I said even when he drifted in the middle he was largely ineffective, rewatch those games and quit making up these ridiculous claims based on no knowledge. And for 'all the goals and assists' you said he had at barca, it was a total of 3 goals and NO assists over the whole year in la liga. If you're going to talk stats at least make a meaningful arguement. This is a discussion and when i challenged you to back up your foolish riquelme over zidane in the world cup remark, you failed to do so. As usual, you and teso resort to name-calling and avoidance of any football related matter, but it has become expected for simpletons such as yourselves. Now run along little boy and go and have your temper tantrum elsewhere.
Thanks for proving my point that you lack the ability to comprehend anything other than what you believe. Where exactly did I say he had "all those gols"? I said "the only gols" which leads to wonder how you deduced I that I intended or implied anything more? Reading comprehension, not your strong suit. Funny thing is you're the one throwing the tantrum solely because others disagree. Take your ball and run along home as you can't seem to play well with others.
Your remarks are hilariously foolish. you said goals and handful of assists, he had NO assists during the whole la liga season. another dumb statement-"Riquelme got his majority of minutes as a sub while at Barca." wrong again he started 20 games and subbed 20 games while at barca. Get your facts straight and learn not to get your panties all in a bunch.
I am starting to believe in what you say ... could you point me to where you got your stats? Would like to see a few things myself, as I have some games of when he played at Barza, but not all. Thanx Phil80! PS: Van Gaal's first words to Riquelme: " I didn't ask the club to buy you" .
Your absolutely correct I did in fact say goals. Goals would be plural for more than one which three definitely is. Where also did you come up with 40 games as everything else states he only played 30 games. I did however make a mistake by counting the passes that did lead to the final ball. Wow did you see that, someone doing what your are completely incapable of doing which is acknowledging I was not correct. Try it sometime. As for panties in a bunch, you seem to be the only one around here getting pissy when ever someone contradicts you or disagrees.
Exactly, you were wrong. The handful of assists that you so foolishly claimed is actually ZERO (during the whole season of la liga!!). Now go and find those mysterious Zidane vs Riquelme articles during wc2006 that you dreamed up. And when have I said an incorrect statement, if i were factually incorrect i would admit to it... there you go making stuff up again. I have no problems with people disagreeing with my views, as Vipnerd does so in a mature fashion, but calling people 'sheeple' and six year olds especially when you made the wrong statements, shows your immaturity and lack of class. Grow up.
Atleast someone's mature enough to have a discussion with. There are a few sites with good stats I've come across, this one works pretty well as it goes back several years: http://soccernet.espn.go.com/players/stats?id=19082&cc=5901
How can you count the CL games with reference to his three gols in 40 matches yet not count the two gols and assist he got in the CL? With that asked I will admit you got my goat and I reacted in a manner I usually do not. As for my original contention which was Riquelme has achieved more with less than any of the other three players mentioned and I will stand behind that. What I have tried in vain to get you to acknowledge is that Riquelme was hands down more instrumental to every club he's played for over both Rony, Zizou and Kaka'. All these players are brilliant in different ways but the one thing that separates them is having to had carry a team consistently. Riquelme is the only to have done so and further more you've discounted every accomplishment he's achieved in South America. If you want to question my maturity or class you are more then welcomed to go and read my posting history as you'll find both those attributes clearly abundant. I will however go on defending Riquelme as he's proved his class and abilities and no one as of yet has legitimately proved otherwise. Your continously referencing the Barca situation as his failure is still absurd and regardless of how many people have pointed out the whole situation you still refuse to acknowledge the reality of his time at Barca. I've held up the mirror now in good faith I ask that you do the same.
I see where you come from with your analysis of the stats. In what other place other than the US, do people pay atention to "assists" for football stats? The way I have always seen this is a direct reference to basketball ... and the high % of effectiveness to score when assisted, afterall they are using their hands. But, what use does it serve in football? How many goals are missed, yet the chance of goal was there? 17 assists in 6 seasons. It certainly doesn't explain the significance of a player, his reading of the game, the setting of the pace of the game, the 2nd to last pass to open up defenses ... and obviously the # of missed chances by the forwards. It is clear that Riquelme never found his ground at Barcelona. As I stated in my previous post, the first words he heard from Van Gaal were that he hadn't asked for him. Playing out of position, without the speed to make an impact on the left of midfield nor the physical response to track back, but most importantly, without the confidence from his coach, it doesn't surprise me at all that his impact was minimal. Added to a chaotic time in Barza's politics, it was not the right place to be. Taking away that year at Barza, which is not little to do, but that was a given by most on this thread ... Riquelme has given to the game much more than most players in his position. He is not ahead of Kaka or Dinho ... nor Zidane ... but there are not many more ahead of him. .
If you look at my post history, im not much of a stats person. They dont record the intangibles like you've stated. I only brought them up because Moishe exaggerated Riquelme's significance with Barca, as his 'handful of assists' claim was inaccurate and his goals were far from impressive. To sum it up, your last sentence pretty much hits the nail on the head.
I was referring to the total amount of games, but even if you take CL games into consideration. He scored five goals and 1 assist in 40 games. Even defenders tally up more assists than that in a season. The point is you think Riquelme should be rated higher because he carried Villareal while Rony, Zidane had superstars around them. In truth Dinho and Zidane carried their superstar team and made them better. They were playing with these sides during their prime, so we will never know how they wouldve done with a Villareal, so it's ridiculous to disregard their accomplishments. And how am I 'refusing to acknowledge Riquelme's situation at Barca.' Contradictory to your claims that he has been influential in every club he's played at, he had a poor spell at Barca. There were circumstances that led to this but that still doesnt change that fact. And til now both european clubs he joined ended up wanting to sell him (something you didnt see with zidane and ronaldinho at their primes).
When you claim I exaggerated Riquelme's signifigance you make sound as if I said or implied he had big or for that matter solid numbers. The word I used was "handful" meaning not much but something. How does that constitute an exaggeration? As far as overstating his significance, all I said was that when allowed to play in his natural position he was more effective. I'm pretty sure I never said he lit it up or anything along those lines. Hitting on the assist stats, like vipnerd also said, it's just as much the pass that sets everything into motion that we see as just as significant. I didn't exclusively rate Riquelme higher by virtue of his time at Villarreal. I used Villarreal as the point because of what they were able to accomplish with only one stunningly talented player while the other guys were in the presence of other super stars. Can you imagine how awesome it could've been had he received a legitimate chance at Barca? As far as both European clubs wanting to sell him, with Barca it made sense as he had become surplus to requirements but with Villarreal, Fernando Roig wanted the coach and player to work things out which didn't happen thus the need to sell, not want. As for the articles proclaiming Riquelme over Zidane during the WC, I do stand corrected as the articles I did find indeed viewed him as one of the best players but none flat out said he outperformed Zidane.
handful implies more than one. and he had exactly one in all competitions, zero in la liga, so that is an exaggeration. what riquelme did with villareal is great but its not enough to claim he has had a better career than Ronaldinho or Zidane. Im glad you conceeded that you werent able to find those zidane vs riquelme wc2006, cuz no knowledgeable unbiased expert would claim such a thing.
Handful defined is simply a small undefined number or quantity so using the term handful is not an exageration. A better example of an exaggeration would be implying that Zizou and Rony carried their superstar teams. I've used Villarreal as one example but not exclusively to define a career. I've also touched on what he's accomplished at BOCA both times as well as our national teams obvious dependence on him. If we are going to talk careers, lets talk about total careers and not just Europe or prime ages. That same Riquelme while at BOCA toyed with Makelele and one of the best Real Madrid teams of recent times.
Hmm... I remember you have some sort of grudge against Ronaldinho Gaucho. Maybe it's from the moment he snubbed Manchester for Barcelona... But Barcelona also ascended to 2nd place that year. The year before that, they were 6th or 7th in La Liga. And of course the two years after this, Barcelona won the title. I'd say it worked out pretty well for Barcelona. Meanwhile for PSG... they've been flirting around mid-table (one season even worse) in Ligue 1 after that one year they finished second. I think it's wrong what's happening to Riquelme in Spain - he should be playing football. As for the comparison, all three players are very different. Kaka's a more direct player, Ronaldinho loves 1-2 plays and is a good playmaker and Riquelme's also a very good playmaker but IMO is more of a leader than either one of them and gets his team more involved than either one of them. So it depends on what you're looking for in a player. A field leader on the offensive end? Riquelme. Devastating player that can play withdrawn or up-top, then Kaka. A creative player behind the striker or on the wing - Ronaldinho.