Ri Han-Jae called to North Korean team

Discussion in 'Korea' started by Matsu, Sep 2, 2002.

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  1. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Probably this news is more interesting to Korean forum than to anyone else so I will post it here.

    Ri Han-Jae became the first player born in Japan to get named to a Korean national team. He was born in Okayama prefecture and went to Hiroshima North Korean High School. He now plays for Sanfrecce Hiroshima, although he hasnt started many games because he is only 19.

    Ri, an attacking midfielder, was named to the North Korean U-21 team that will play in the Asian Games in Korea. He will travel to Korea for the first time in his life in mid-September, to practice with the North Korean team. This is a big news story in Japan (especially Kansai) right now because of Prime Minister Koizumi's planned trip to North Korea, at about the same time. According to one news report, there is a good chance that Ri will travel along in the Japanese Prime Minister's airplane!! (If he travels by a regular plane, he has to go to Beijing first, because there are no direct airplane flights to North Korea).

    By the way, for anyon who is wondering, "Ri" is the same Chinese character as the usual "Lee" in Korean, but the prounciation is "Ri"
     
  2. Korea_Fighting

    Korea_Fighting Red Card

    Jun 17, 2002
    Thanks for the news, Matsu.
     
  3. jamisont

    jamisont New Member

    Jan 30, 2002
    I think Park Kang-Jo was first one who was born in Japan and made Korean national team squad.
     
  4. Korean Football

    Korean Football New Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    U.S.
    thanx for the post Matsu. I saw it on the Korean papers too.

    I guess those N.Koreans living in Japan are educated to be loyal to N.Korea.
     
  5. casualfan

    casualfan New Member

    Aug 13, 2002
    this is strange. I had no idea that they had North Korean schools in Japan. AHHMazing..Japan doesn't fly directly to NK? Is China the only place that offers direct flights to NK? Cause I'm thinking about visiting there and a relative of mine says I have to fly to China first.
     
  6. Korean Football

    Korean Football New Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    U.S.
    yes there are NK schools in Japan. I heard that they aren't educated like the local Japanese students are. They dress in the traditional Korean clothes and...well..that's what I heard.

    About the flight, as long as you are a civilian, I believe chances are you have to go through China.

    Considering that you are a casual person, I would assume you are a civilian. ;)
     
  7. Nepal Footy

    Nepal Footy New Member

    Feb 8, 1999
    Nepal
    Was this guy the person that became the first N. Korean to play in South Korea?

    Could someone post the N. Korea squad for the match and also club team if the players play abroad (like in Japan for instance)?

    Thanks
     
  8. Korean Football

    Korean Football New Member

    Apr 21, 2001
    U.S.
    no. That guy is Kyusa Yang. I think he went back to Japan because he wasn't quite good enough at Ulsan.

    Kang-jo Park is the first Korean-Japanese to play for the Korean NT. Of course, because of his small size, he eventually got kicked out.
     
  9. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: Re: Ri Han-Jae called to North Korean team

    There are both North Korean and South Korean schools in Japan. Some of the teaching is a bit political, but the main reason for going to a Korean high school is to teach the kids to read and write Korean, and to study Korean literature. If they go to Japanese high school they only learn Japanese (and also English).

    Some of the Korean-Japanese that I know went to Korean high schools, but a lot of them went to regular Japanese schools. I think more people are abandoning the Korean schools nowadays because they think it is more important to get in a good university, rather than to study Korean. But I think most Korean-Japanese still go to primary school at Korean schools so they can learn to read Korean language.
     
  10. jamisont

    jamisont New Member

    Jan 30, 2002
    well there are lot of north koreans in america too but most of em were from Japan.
    Their parents were born in north korea before korea was divided, and moved to Japan and lived there as north korean citizen just cuz they were born in north korea.
     
  11. jamisont

    jamisont New Member

    Jan 30, 2002
    I think north korean players who tried K-league is Ryang Gyu Sa. Im not sure if he is still in k-league club.
    Park Kan Jo was born in Japan and plays for SungNam Ilhwa.

    I dont know much about N.Korea soccer players.
     
  12. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: Re: Ri Han-Jae called to North Korean team

    Sorry I shoud have said the "North Korean national team". Park Kan-Jo played for South Korea, not North Korea
     
  13. skipshady

    skipshady New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Orchard St, NYC
    This could get really inconvenient for Ri if he becomes a regular for North Korea when the qualifiers for 2006 WC rolls around.
     
  14. Hyok

    Hyok Member+

    Sep 4, 2002
    California
    Koreans in Japan

    Okay, here is the convoluted story of Koreans in Japan.

    First of all, most Koreans in Japan are originally from or descendants of those who are originally from southern parts of Korea. Right after the end of WWII, during the U.S. military rule, there was wide spread persecution of leftists or suspected leftists by the right wingers from the Northeastern part of Korea, who were expelled by the North Korean authorities for collaboration with the Japanese. Notably, in Jeju, 1/3 of the entire population was killed by such gangs. Many Jeju islanders escaped to Japan.

    Virtually all of Koreans in Japan went there to escape poverty or persecution in Korea. They are not forced laborers taken by the Japanese--most forced laborers returned to Korea.

    After Japan's defeat, Japan declared that all the people who were from the colonies returned to being citizens of the countries that existed before being annexed by Japan. Therefore, all Koreans returned to being citizens of the kingdom of Chosen (Joseon), under Japanese law.

    Under pressure from the U.S. Japan normalized relations with S. Korea, and those Koreans in Japan who declared S. Korean nationality were recognized as such and their S. Korean passports were considered valid.

    However, vast majority of the Koreans in Japan, inspite of originally being from southern regions of Korea, were loyal to North Korea. North Korea made a lot of effort to help out Korean residents in Japan by protesting oppressive Japanese laws and helping to set up Korean schools. Meanwhile the South Korean gov't, especially under Park Chung-Hee's rule, neglected them, or even tacitly allowed Japanese laws that oppressed Koreans. Massive economic aid from Japan probably helped to keep Park's lips silent.

    Japan still has no diplomatic relations with North Korea. Therefore, those "North Koreans" in Japan are still considered citizens of Chosen, a kingdom that no longer exists. So, that North Korean player is not really legally recognized as a North Korean in Japan. He is merely from "Kita Chosen"--North Joseon.

    That's it. Today. the number of people declaring South Korean citizenship has shot up. A SK passport opens many more doors than a NK one. Also, the economic troubles of NK probably means they can no longer help the Koreans in Japan like they have in the past. In fact, it is the other way around now. Many Koreans in Japan send millions of dollars to NK to help out the economic situation.

    By the way, I believe the so-called North Korean player in the K-League goes by his Japanese surname of Kaimoto.
     
  15. casualfan

    casualfan New Member

    Aug 13, 2002
    wow thanks, much more clearer now.
     
  16. Korea_Fighting

    Korea_Fighting Red Card

    Jun 17, 2002
    Re: Koreans in Japan

    I think Songnam's Kaimoto is actually a Japanese.
     
  17. jamisont

    jamisont New Member

    Jan 30, 2002
    Re: Re: Koreans in Japan

    yep Kaimoto is Japanese not north korean.
     
  18. Hyok

    Hyok Member+

    Sep 4, 2002
    California
    My bad

    Yeah, I confused him with Ryang Kyusa. It is especially confusing with so many Koreans in Japan with both Korean and Japanese names--like that boxer, whose name I cannot recall at the moment.

    Anyway, all the other info on my post are true ;-)
     
  19. jamisont

    jamisont New Member

    Jan 30, 2002
    Re: My bad

    well koreans with both Korean and Japanese names are naturalized Japanese.
     
  20. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Re: My bad

    Well, not exactly. You got some of the details wrong, perhaps because your source is trying to reinforce some propaganda ideas about Japan.

    First, only about one-third of Koreans in Japan are, like you said, migrants who came to Japan in the late 1940s to escape persecution in Korea. Another one-third are the descendants of forced laborers who came here during the Japanese colonial occupation of Korea, and another one-third are decendants of Koreans who have lived in Japan since the early Meiji era (very rough estimates).

    Second, the point about "Chosen" being a nonexistent country is wrong. In Japan, "Kita Chosen" is just an abbreviation for "Chosen Minshu Kyowakoku", or the Democratic Republic of Korea. Similarly "Kankoku" is an abbreviation for "Daikan Minkoku" or the Republic of Korea. North Koreans in Japan are recognised as North Korean citizens, and carry either North Korean passports or Japanese identity cards indicating them as citizens of North Korea.

    As for the point about sending money to North Korea, a lot of this comes from the pachinko industry, which has a strong North Korean influence (Not all. Some is affiliated with the Yakuza, others with North Korea). I read in a newspaper recently that pachinko operators send something like 150 billion yen a year to North Korea.
     
  21. Hyok

    Hyok Member+

    Sep 4, 2002
    California
    Who is your source?

    Matsu,

    My source for the information I provided is Kim Myung-Soo, who is a doctorate in sociology from Osaka University. Check out his profile at: http://www.han.org/a/vitae.html.

    While I lived in Japan, I had sent him an e-mail regarding the status of Koreans in Japan, what I posted was the content of his reply. You can further explore his website at http://www.han.org/. There is a Japanese language section.

    What you state may be what the majority of the people feel, however legally speaking, Japan does not recognize North Korea as a country. It is still considered the northern region of a kingdom that does not exist. A passport for a country that is not recognized means nothing legally. As for forced laborers, extensive research has shown that most returned to Korea. There are few in Japan who are descendents of those forced laborers.

    As for the claim that 1/3 of the Koreans being descendents of EARLY Meiji-era Korean residents, that is not true. Most went to Japan in search of livelihood AFTER their economic base was destroyed by colonial policy during 1910-1945, not 1870's which would be the early Meiji era. If you are referring to Koreans in Japan before Japanese annexation of Korea, people with roots that far back have assimilated into the Japanese society a long time ago, especially during the colonial period when it was decidedly "uncool", or even dangerous to be Korean in Japan.

    The great earthquake of 1923 (Kanto Daijishin) comes to mind. During the chaos, there were rumors that Koreans were poisoning wells, in revenge for colonizing Korean. A mob went around and killed several thousand Koreans. One of the ways they determined if a person was Korean or not was to force them to speak Japanese and see if they could form the nasalized "g" sound. For example, "Sore ga," would be pronounced more like "Soreng a." If they could not, they were rounded up and killed. Believe me, many Koreans found ways to blend in very quickly.

    Your interpretation of the various names for SK and NK in Japan are not correct in my opinion. Kita Chosen, spoken in Korean would be Buk Joseon--like I said, the northern region of the kingdom of Joseon (or Choson by the McCune-Reischauer method of spelling). The full name for NK, in Korean would be Joseon Minju Gonghwaguk--The People's Republic of Joseon--not North Joseon, as commonly referred to in Japan.

    Kankoku is simply the Japanese pronunciation of Hanguk. Daehanminguk, Daikankminkoku in Japanese, is relatively a new term that sprouted in the 1950's from the term Daehanjeguk, or Daikanteikoku in Japanese, that King Kojong coined so that Korea could claim to be an empire in the late 1800's. He did this to counter Japanese claims of being an empire, and the Japanese ruler declaring himself a Tenno (emperor). The term Tenno is a relatively new term (it was used in ancient times for Chinese rulers) that has been retroactively applied to many major tribal leaders of Japan, to create a false impression that there was a continuous line of royalty from the original, mythical Jimmu Tenno. This was one of the main teachings of State Shinto.

    Yes, it is true that many ethnic Koreans operate pachinko parlors, in addition to yakiniku (bulgogi) restaurants. The lack of opportunities in employment have led many into shady underworld businesses. Frankly, I have trouble believing that any are associated with the Yakuza however, given the Yakuza's connection with the ultra-rightwing of Japan.

    Furthermore, distinguishing North Koreans and South Koreans in Japan is purely academic. It merely separates people of different allegiances, not place of origin. As mentioned, most Koreans in Japan originated from the southern region of Korea.

    I welcome the positive attitude you have, Matsu. If more people were like you, both in Korea and in Japan, the two countries would be unreserved friends. Unfortunately, that is not the case. Regardless of what you and I want the situation to be, the facts are what they are.

    Best regards,
    Hyok
     
  22. Korea_Fighting

    Korea_Fighting Red Card

    Jun 17, 2002
    Re: Who is your source?

    HOw about korean craftmen and scholars japs kidnapped during Hideyoshi invasion of late 15th century and early 16th century???
     
  23. Hyok

    Hyok Member+

    Sep 4, 2002
    California
    Old history

    Korea_Fighting, those craftmen, notably the potters, could be considered have been completely assimilated into Japanese society. Many settled in Arita and Karatsu (by the way, Korea used to be called "Kara" in the olden days by the Japanese), and made the pottery styles of Arita-yaki and Karatsu-yaki famous throughout Japan, and later the world.

    Many descendents of the those craftmen, most of them part Korean due to intermarriage, became reknowned as well. Today, I doubt you'll find many people left who have much more than a small fraction of the lineage of those original craftmen, though the skill was passed on.

    Actually, if you really wanted to get picky, there really isn't much to distinguish the Koreans and Japanese, in genetic terms. Though DNA analysis, scientists have determined that the original inhabitants of Japan, commonly called the Jomon people, were replaced by a later arrival, the Yayoi people. The Japanese today are almost completely Yayoi in genetic terms, with only a minor contribution from Jomon gene pool. The Yayoi crossed over from the Korean peninsula and spread very quickly.

    Simply put, Japanese genes are almost identical to Korean but for some minor contribution from aboriginal genes. The Ainus of northern Japan appear to be the closest descendents of the Jomon people.

    Japanese scholar shudder at the thought that they are slightly modified Koreans, so they advance the theory that Japanese are descendants of people who came over in small numbers a long time ago and multiplied.

    Korean scholars contend that ancient Koreans "conquered" Japan. For example, Korean scholars believe that the people of Kaya had a strong influence on the early development of Japan due to the abundance of Kaya-like artifacts in Kyushu. Japanese scholars contend that Kaya (Mimana in Japanese) was a colony of Japan, but most modern scholars reject this theory as revisionist.

    It appears undeniable that Paekche (Kudara in Japanese) had very strong influence on ancient Japan. The Paekche scholar Wang-In (Wanni in Japanese) taught Chinese characters to Shotokutaishi in A.D. 405. Also, it is reported that one of Hideyoshi's generals remarked, upon causing carnage on Korea, that the revenge was a thousand years in coming. Roughly about a thousand years prior, Paekche was expelled by the combined forces of Shilla (Shiragi in Japanese) and Tang, and most fled to Japan.

    Sorry if that was more than you asked for.

    Later,
    Hyok
     
  24. casualfan

    casualfan New Member

    Aug 13, 2002
    I don't know if this is true or not, but there is a story that the first Emperor (Chinese) sent a group of 500 girls and boys, along with a priest to seek out eternal life or something like that. They never came back of course, who the hell would want to come back to a tyrant? So the story is that they landed in Japan and settled there. They brought with them food of course, mainly radish, which COULD explain why Japanese eat so much radish. But of course any Japanese would deny this story, even if it were to be proved true sometime in the future.
     
  25. Matsu

    Matsu Member

    Mar 28, 2001
    Look, Im not going to get into a long academic dispute. Here are a few simple facts for you, and if you dont think they prove the point, then by all means, continue to assume that what you believe is correct.

    In all newspapers and TV shows, the first time that the word "Kita Chosen" is used, it is followed immediately, in parentheses (or spoken by the announcer) by the full, correct name of North Korea (Chosen Minshu Kyowakoku). The same is true in official documents of the government (trust me, Ive translated more than enough of them to know).

    To claim that "Kita Chosen" refers to an ancient kingdom, when every newspaper, TV station and government organisation in the country states IN SO MANY WORDS what they mean by Kita Chosen is. . . . well, Im not going to start a flame war. Use your own imagination.

    Second, in the past ten years, there have been an estimated 3000 lawsuits filed by Korean residents of Japan seeking compensation from their former employers over forced labour. One would guess that many more former forced labourers are living in Japan but have not filed lawsuits, since at least half and probably more than half of the companies that used forced labour during the war no longer exist as companies. One would also assume that these people -- both those who have filed lawsuits and those who have not -- have family members (wives and children) who were not former forced labourers themselves

    In other words, a fairly simple calculation, even using very conservative assumptions, would indicate that there could not possibly be LESS than 10,000 such people in Japan. OK, that is nowhere near a third of the Korean population in Japan, but it also is a bit different from your contention that "almost all" went back to Korea.

    I said initially, most of your points were correct. There are some details, though, that do not gibe with reality. In particular, the contention that Kita Chosen refers to a nonexistent Kingdom is a bit ridiculous. Go into a bookstore and open a Japanese-English dictionary, and look up the word "Kita Chosen". In fact, Ill save you the trouble. The correct translation is "North Korea".
     

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