Restart question (Revs v. Fire)

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Scott Zawadzki, Aug 26, 2002.

  1. Scott Zawadzki

    Feb 18, 1999
    Midlothian, VA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First half of Revs/Fire match, Rev's keeper Aiden Brown is at the edge of his area looking to distribute the ball. Hristo Stoichov (sp??) is standing in front of him and moving with him when Brown moves to his left. Brown finds an area to distribute the ball to but unknowingly steps a full 2 yards out of the penaly area in doing so. Stoichov waves his hand to point out the infraction which the referee whistles. The restart was taken 2 yards outside the penalty area.

    My question: Why wasn't the restart JUST outside the PA which is where the infraction took place. If Brown had run 20 yards upfield, would the restart have taken place there???

    Scott
     
  2. Kermmy803

    Kermmy803 Member

    Jul 10, 2002
    Denton County, TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I had a similar situation to what you saw this weekend in a youth game.

    IFK in PA for obstruction. Keeper makes a great save on the set play and collects the ball. Immediately heads to the top of the area to clear the ball. My position at the start of the play was on the goalline to monitor the area around the GK. As the keeper heads to the top of the area, I am running with him about five yards away.

    When the keeper went to punt the ball, he was clearly in possesion of the ball outside the PA. His plant foot for the clear was about a yard or so clear of the PA. I immediately blew the whistle for the infraction and restarted with the ball just outside of the PA (ball just clear of the line marking the PA). I restarted here due to the fact that the infraction happens as soon as the keeper is in possesion (with hands) of the ball outside of the area.

    Just my two cents.

    Lane
     
  3. deep-throat

    deep-throat New Member

    May 24, 2001
    I think you are "nit-picking" a little here for no reason - does it really make that much difference?

    In any case, if you recall there was an altercation immediately after it - Joey Franchino said at halftime that Stoichkov bounced the ball off his face, presumably the reason for the caution. After all that got sorted out, and the Ref chewed Stoichkov's ear off, they (the Fire) seemed to just place the ball and the ref accepted it - I'm sure he probably thought if Stiochkov wanted to pull it back a yard or so after being such an idiot, what's the purpose in getting so fussy? He's not gaining anything, and no body else is concerned about it - get the game restarted.
     
  4. Scott Zawadzki

    Feb 18, 1999
    Midlothian, VA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Restart question (Revs v. Fire)

    I don't think that when the ball is THAT CLOSE TO GOAL that I'm being nit-picky about where the restart should be. If the ball was going out of the defensive end, I don't think that a couple of yards or more is any big deal. On the other hand, when the attack has a shot at goal, the couple of yards does indeed make a difference IMHO. In fact, when that close to goal, it can at times be to the attacking team's advantage to play the ball back a little to give extra distance behind the wall for the ball to dip!

    For you to say that the difference between an 18 yard and a 20 yard free kick is nit-picking seems a bit odd to me.

    Where should the restart have taken place??

    Scott
     
  5. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It looked like Hristo placed the ball on that spot after the melee. It's possible that he pulled it back a little to give himself a little more room to bend or swerve the ball. I'm just grasping at straws here seeing as the ball was just blasted on goal, but for a player like that, I don't think 2 yards makes much difference.

    If Corrie ordered the ball to be placed there, maybe he did that help him set the wall. There are grid lines there, so he might have cheated to make sure there were 10 yards. At region I Kevin Stott showed a clip of one of his games where he placed the ball slightly farther back in order to use the field's markings to ensure 10 yards. It was easy to judge encroachment and Etcheverry still scored on the free kick.
     
  6. Motterman

    Motterman Member

    Jul 8, 2002
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know I would prefer the ball another yard or two outside of the area. Otherwise you have to dink the ball instead of getting anything on it.... unless the people in the wall or the goalkeeper are stupid or something...
     
  7. nsa

    nsa Member+

    New England Revolution; Boston Breakers
    United States
    Feb 22, 1999
    Notboston, MA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, this is the Revolution that we're talking about. ;)
     
  8. Andyrey

    Andyrey New Member

    Aug 12, 2002
    Raleigh NC
    I did not see this game, but if the call was a handling the ball by the keeper, it is the wrong call. It should have been an IFK for the keeper's team because Hristo, by moving with the keeper, was 'preventing the keeper from putting the ball into play', one of the 7 technical offenses in law XII.
     
  9. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    That was my immediate thought too. Why did the GK go out of the area? Because the attacker was blocking him from putting the ball back into play. Seems like good refereeing would require you to do the fair thing and punish the offense for creating the whole situation in the first place.

    But I agree that Hristo definitlely would have wanted that extra couple of yards for his kick in order to get it over the wall but still on goal.
     
  10. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Restart question (Revs v. Fire)

    Hritso was walking with Brown, he wasn't preventing him from playing it. He was to the keeper's right standing away from him by a yard or so, so this wasn't an issue. I'm not even sure Hristo was paying attention to Brown, but he looked down and saw that they were both well out of the area and then put his hand up.

    I think Brown just got confused by all of the football lines on the field and just lost track of where he was.

    The ref team made the right call, he was a good three yards or so outside of the area.
     
  11. Greyhnd00

    Greyhnd00 New Member

    Jan 17, 2000
    Rediculously far nor
    I wouldnt call a deliberate handling in this type of situation....It is trifling and could be handled with a word to the keeper as you run by........
     
  12. Dave Han

    Dave Han New Member

    May 6, 1999
    Auburn, AL
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This drifts the thread a little bit, but it's related. It happened a while ago, but I've forgotten to ask about it.

    In a rec game, the goalkeeper smothers the ball inside the six yard box. He gets up and for some reason carries the ball into the goal.

    This was not a restart: the ball was in play and in the goalkeeper's posession. Is it a goal?
     
  13. IASocFan

    IASocFan Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 13, 2000
    IOWA
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If he carries the ball completely across the goal line, then it's a goal.
     
  14. jkc313

    jkc313 Member

    Nov 21, 2001
    Two things, one, if the keeper handles the ball outside the penalty area, the restart is just past the penalty area line not two yards. Second, this never should have happened because the opponent was interfering with the keepers releasing the ball by moving with him and there should have been an IFK awarded to the keeper at that spot.
     
  15. SoccerEsq

    SoccerEsq Member

    Aug 28, 2000
    Maryland SoccerPlexish
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Restart question (Revs v. Fire)

    For the sake of discussion, assume that the referee concluded that, in fact, the football lines on did cause the player to be confused. (Another example: a player picks up the ball for a throw-in thinking it's gone out of play over the touchline, but it turns out it's only gone over the football sideline and is still on the soccer field...)

    In the spirit of Law 1's requirements for soccer Field Markings, could the referee stop play and have a drop-ball restart in these sorts of situations?
     
  16. billf

    billf Member+

    May 22, 2001
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Restart question (Revs v. Fire)

    In a U-10 game, maybe you can do this as a referee. However, this was a top flight pro game. The Soccer lines are bright yellow on this field and all of the players knew this. I was only guessing that he was lost. A pro player should know better.

    I also don't think Brown was prevented from releasing the ball on that play. Hristo had his back to Brown and he walked in a straight line up field ahead of Brown and to his right. An attacker has the same right to do that as a defender does. As I said earlier, I think the referee moved the ball back a little to make getting 10 yards on the restart a little easier to judge. For a player like Hristo, two yards farther back doesn't make much difference.
     
  17. Statesman

    Statesman New Member

    Sep 16, 2001
    The name says it all
    I think the main question here is whether the impact of the extra 2 yards back was to the benefit of Hristo, and the subsequent impact fixing the spot would have on managing the game itself.

    With all the hustle and bustle with the yellow card, then getting all the players set up, having the ball a couple yards off isn't that huge of an issue. Sure he gets a little more space to curve the ball, but it's not as bad as what an earlier post indicated where he would only be able to "dink" it if moved forward.

    Imagine what would have happened if the ref corrected the issue, though. First he gives the yellow and sets the wall. Then he see the ball 2 yards off and orders it to be positioned correctly. Then he would have to reset the wall a couple yards further back as well (which if I recall correctly did have attackers in it). After doing this and taking up his position, 2-3 minutes would already have passed. Not to mention about half that time you're talking about a hostile wall situation.

    I think it was better for all just to discard the couple yards, get the kick off, and the players out of the wall and playing again. It was already a tense situation, no need to sacrifice control of the game just for a few yards on a free kick.
     
  18. vabeacher

    vabeacher Member

    Jul 27, 2001
    Virginia Beach, VA
    As a referee, I would let the restart take place from anywhere behind the point of the foul. The main goal should be to get the game restarted as quickly as possible, without the kicking team pushing the restart up beyond the point of the foul. Just because the infraction took place at the edge of the penalty area, why should the referee's handling of restarts be any different.
     
  19. Grizzlierbear

    Grizzlierbear New Member

    Jul 18, 2001
    canada no it is not
    blades of grass are important

    DFK ball placed just outside the penalty area boundry lines. In this case the closer the foul to the goal the more strict the placement. Poor mechanics not to insist the ball remain where the infraction occurred. If you do not believe a two yard or three yard difference makes no difference in this case then free kicks are not your speciality.
    If there was some feeling on the part of the referee that the extra lines or an opposing player may inadvertantly have caused the keeper to become disoriantated. A caution is harsh in these circumstances and does not do the management of the match or the nature of the foul justice.
     
  20. Statesman

    Statesman New Member

    Sep 16, 2001
    The name says it all
    Re: blades of grass are important

    The caution was for the keeper bouncing the ball off the head of the opponent, not for carrying the ball outside the box.
     
  21. Grizzlierbear

    Grizzlierbear New Member

    Jul 18, 2001
    canada no it is not
    Re: Re: blades of grass are important

    Thanks Statesman I was unaware! I assumed, as in all situations it works better if you see it. A bit lost though, the ball was was bounced off an opponent's head after the keeper stepped outside the boundry lines incident in the process of releasing the ball? Or was it in never released and thrown after the whistle in anger? In that case should not a red card should be considered?
     
  22. Statesman

    Statesman New Member

    Sep 16, 2001
    The name says it all
    That was the explanation given later in the match. I don't think the cameras actually caught the action of that happening, so I can't tell you the specifics. I believe the keeper tossed the ball up out of frustration from Hristo tipping off the ref, and it happened to lightly rebound off of Hristo himself from being in close proximity. Whether it was intentional or not, it certainly wasn't anything violent but definitely unsporting. I haven't really heard an exact report with the specifics, just bits and pieces. I wasn't watching the game that closely when it happened so I might be missing something, or completely off the mark for that matter and be confusing this with something else :)
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I saw the match, and it seemed pretty clear to me that Stoitchkov--and not Brown, the keeper--was the one who was cautioned after the play. Corrie isolated him and showed him the yellow after Stoitchkov was trying to pry the ball from Brown's hands and pushing/slapping him in the process.

    Also, I don't think it's correct to say that Stoitchkov "tipped of the ref". Yes, he was dramatically pointing that Brown was over the line. But, it appeared that Corrie--rightly--waited for his SAR to confirm that Brown was over the line before ever whistling. Calling a foul everytime Stoitchkov or anyone else yells at you from 40 yards doesn't seem like a smart thing to make a habit.
     
  24. Statesman

    Statesman New Member

    Sep 16, 2001
    The name says it all
    Ok I need to get my head out of my ass. I've gotten this particular match confused with a few others that were going on. I wasn't paying much attention to the events at the time so please disregard my comments.
     
  25. Scott Zawadzki

    Feb 18, 1999
    Midlothian, VA
    Club:
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm going to jump back in here to get back to my original point...and hopefully give some of you something to think about. When awarding a free kick extemely close to the penalty area, be aware of the attacking team trying to pull the ball back away from the spot of the infraction. It is a tactical move by the attacking team to give them a better chance of scoring. Anybody who feels that it is trifling, or that it is to their disadvantage to move the ball back probably feels this way because they have never been a free-kick taker. IMHO, the referee was not being responsible by allowing Stoitchkov to pull the freekick back a couple of yards.

    Scott
     

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