Here is the letter that I received today from Curt: Kevin First, I appreciate your proactive approach to this bad incident. Please relay to as many people that are regulars in the Cauldron as you can that starting at our next home game, we will implement new security measures. A zero tolerance policy will be in effect. If rowdy behavior (beer throwing, crude language, ridiculous behavior, etc.) continues, the Cauldron will become an alchohol free area. Please be aware that extra security measures will taken. As well, it is imperative that the majority speak up and address this immediately on site when something happens. It is not acceptable for people to protect those that misbehave. If this continues, all the good work which has been done will be useless. A "few bad apples" are about to ruin the fun for everyone. Curt So that is where we stand. I'm relieved that no one has to leave The Cauldron. If you know people who come into The Cauldron, but don't frequent these boards, please spread the word about the zero-tolerance policy and increased scrutiny that we will be under. Lets make sure the new people that join us each game understand the rules.
That language is vague enough to make me ask a very important question. I realize that the "crude language" outlaws outbursts from individual fans. I was one of the bad guys here, so I'll own up and work on that. Does that mean that the "Who's Your Daddy" and "Wings of a Sparrow" chants are out as well? We've been doing these chants forever, whether we've been drunk or not!
1) Curt needs to acknowledge that the Mystics and longtime Cauldron regulars can't be fully responsible for the new folks that show up there every week - since the club itself is advertising the section and not the supporters club. 2) There needs to be a balance such that "The Cauldron" is not more restrictively policed than other sections at Arrowhead.
Let me first state that I'm glad that no one is being removed and things arent being changed with our situation based on one event. But I must again bring up the topic, even more so now... This new tighter security with zero tolerance could be unfair to the innocent. Obviously beer throwing is unacceptable, I think we've covered that. But it seems to me that the words "ridiculous behavior, etc" introduces judgement, and allows the security the right to judge fans they may have previous cases against. It gives the security the type of free reign that got an supposibly innocent guy removed last weekend because a kid didn't like him. Trowing beer or cursing, if the security catches the person is very cut and dry. Deeming someone "ridiculous" introduces a grey area to say the least. I've personally been initially deemed "out of line" twice this season by the sheriff in front of me. As I stated before, I questioned him as to why and he simply walked off knowing full well I didnt break any of the existing rules. In those instances I was only yelling at opposing players and/or the line judge. I didnt curse, and said nothing vulgar, but was still engaged by security and told to "settle down, or they'd throw me out". I fear that now, from this email, if anyone does the same, the security may remove them under the term "ridiculous" as judged by this sheriff. Kevin, we all know the Cauldron was wrong in this case. But as the leader, I'd like you to take this and any other issues others may (John and Andy have given a few) have and get a response. If you dont want to thats fine, I've emailed CJ before and will again. But I dont want to send anything without consulting you first. We need one front in this situation, and you should be it. But to be that leader you've got to take the concerns of those you lead to the proper people and get answers.
I've been concerned about this as well. The Mystics are apparently supposed to police everyone when we don't have total jurisdiction over the section. I personally could care less about alcohol in the section (we drink before the game anyway). Still, the fact that anyone can come in and cause trouble with the Mystics taking the fall along with the vague "ridiculous behavior" concerns me.
Ben, this is the letter I sent to Curt. I have spread the word. In order to be in full compliance with the new security measures, we are concerned about the vaguenss of the 'ridiculous behavior' term. I know you can not mention every possible type of behavior, and that common sense must be applied. But we are concerned that 'ridulous behavior' may be left up to the opinions of the various security personnel. And we are afraid that they may vary wildly and be inconsistent. I am willing to work with you, your staff, and the security personnel to come to a greater understanding of what is and isn't permissable. John, as far as language goes I think everyone understands that F-Bombs are not permissable. As a rule of thumb, if you're in doubt, then don't cuss. Follow Steve DuBois lead and have fun with alternate forms of cussing. Instead of calling the linesman a bastard, tell him that he descended from questionable parentage. It's the same thing, but funnier. As far as the "Who's your Daddy" and "Wings of a Sparrow" chants, I've not been told that we discontinue those. And generally when that many people are doing it, for some odd reason it's harder to understand. Cussing is not immediately recognized as such when it is part of a song. Likewise, the goal kick chant is mostly incompehensible. We already censor ourselves on the "Nice Shot $@%!@$$" shout when everyone picks a different expletive. Andy, I know we can't be responsible for every person that walks into The Cauldron. But, I'm concerned about the excuse that was used this time, and turned out to be a blatant lie. Namely "it wasn't us, it was someone behind us we don't know". If that excuse becomes overused, even if later it happens to be true, then we are still going to be in trouble. We need to show that we've made the effort to educate, before we can pull out that excuse. As far as the overpolicing our section, well we brought that on ourselves didn't we? Not just by the beer throwing, but also by the active cover up of the incident. Why wasn't there this reaction after Freddy doused Serna? Because the culprit was caught and the punishment was imposed. The was no misdirection and obfuscation on our part. Actions have consequences. We covered up, and now we are dealing with the repurcussions.
Kevin, thank you. You put it in very political terms which can be good. But I also at some point would like Curt to know that these threats have already been made toward innocent fans and that our concerns are not with what might happen but with what already has happened this season. Even if the security personel dont listen to what we tell Curt, if we voice beforehand that we've been threatened, he'll know that should there be a questionable judgement by security that leads to removing a "ridiculous" fan from a game. As for this statement: Did we actually cover up? Or did a few of us say that we would cover up if given the chance? I wasnt ever asked by security if I knew who did it, and I talked at length with that sheriff about the thrown beer. I know they walked up and asked Spoon, but did they ask anyone that knew who did it that refused the information? Its one thing to lie, its a whole other thing to not willingly seek out security and give up information.
Ben, yes we did cover up. You yourself posted this in the other thread: ...as soon as that beer got tossed I immediately tried to pick a fight with the security guards. Why? Because they knew I didnt do it, and I knew I could divert attention from who ever actually did it. Point being, I'm going to protect my fellow fans... As I said before, I understand not wanting to rat someone out. I'm personally glad I did not see who did it so that I didn't have to wrestle with that moral dilemma. I already know where you stand if it is one of us who throws the beer. And I know where you stand if the throw had resulted in an injury. But what if it had been someone we don't know, that doesn't hang out with us at the tailgate? Or what if it had been someone we know who decided to throw it at a Wizards player for some inexplicable reason? My point is, that it shouldn't matter who did the throwing, who it was thrown at, or what the result of the throw was. The rule is no throwing. The reason we are going to have more security in our section is because we actively interefered with them finding the culprit. They don't need extra security in other sections because it is likely that they find cooperative witnesses. Is this likely to happen again? At some point in the future, I'm sure it will. But I would hope that we wouldn't have to rat the individual out. I would hope that their momentary lapse of reason would be balanced out by a bout of responsibility and they would own up to the action immediately.
I checked my e-mail again and here is the latest response from Curt: Kevin- Thanks. There are no new rules. Simply, more people (security) will be scrutinizing the behavior in the Cauldron. Beer throwing, chants which use foul language, offensive language by individuals, drunkeness, are all points of concern. Common sense is the rule. Those that are out of control are not welcome. I appreciate your assistance. Curt We are not going to get a list of rules, that we can check off against. Curt and the front office don't have the time to make an ever expanding list of rules. We are going to have to exercise self-control. If anyone has a problem with a security guard and they feel they are being treated unfairly, please get me involved. Hopefully I've illustrated that I can be diplomatic. But if you know you're in the wrong or have crossed the line, please take responsibility for your actions. Is that too much to ask?
Yes, I said that. But I didnt know it was Spoon at that instant. I had a pretty good idea, from tragectory, etc. But I didnt know for fact until we were in the parking lot. Like I said, some people may think I'm wrong (others may think I'm right) but I'm going to protect my fellow fans. Whether its Spoon, Matt or you I'd do the same. I can't ever remember the security at Arrowhead treating us fairly, so I'm not about to help them in any situation where they are going to be coming after us. I never disputed that the rule is no throwing. I agreed whole heartedly. Maybe we need more security, but I'm going to fight very hard to make sure more security does not mean more strict or more aggresive toward us. Its not our fault they didnt do their job and find who did it. If they need more eyes fine, but when we start getting mistreated that where I've got a problem. John, it seems your chants question has been answered. Now we cant be drunk at a game??? What if I'm 21, and am not driving?? Yeah, got a problem with that one, hope it was just wording. Common sense? I've seen security not use common sense 1000 times in my days at Wizards games. Oh well.
Ben remember when your boss said you come off abrasive sometimes? Well when you drink and your pissed and you know your right your abbrasiveness comes off 20 times more. And directing it to a sherriff only leads to trouble. Also if you are in the front row, you are the most visible and the most targeted. That is the price you pay for being in that seat in that section. It sucks I know, but honestly when it comes down to someone who is paying to be there and someone who is being paid to be there who's opinion is going to win? (open to everyone) To defeat the sherriff you must first understand the sherriff. First thing to remember. They are the lowest of the low on the criminal justice system to carry a badge. They get paid the worst and are often put on gaurd duty (note there is a difference between an correctional officer and a guard) They can often get fired the easiest because unless you are the one sherrif you are a deputy, and if the sherrif doesn't like you, you can be fired unlike municipal/state/federal law enforcement. People who often become sherrifs, have one or more of the following charachteristics. 1. Do not have a college degree 2. Just graduated with a degree and are on a new found power trip 3. Picked on kids in high school 4. Got picked on in high school 5. Cannot be hired with a better law enforcement career and are stuck in their shyte job I minored in CJ from CMSU (constantly in the top 3 CJ department in the nation year after year) Sounds prestigous huh? Not really infact it is quite scary. The entire department uses only multiple guess tests, and the CJ majors find them very challenging, when infact they are not. This is stuff that they taught in our policing class. I have heard the stupidest common sense questions come out of peoples mouths who are in their last semester such as. "So a sherrif can pull you over anywhere in the county?" Come on, you have had this crap for 4 most of the time 5 years and you still don't know that. These people carry guns and have the power to arrest people. I am sure I am stereotyping here, and I have several fraternity brothers who are sherrifs. Like I said, it is scary. There are so many loopholes in laws that they can figure out a way to arrest you after they arrested you. They will find some clear and articutable facts afterwards. The system is broken but it is the only system in place so you have to modify your behavior.
Public drunkeness can get you in trouble all over, not just at Wizards games. Even if you're 21 and over and not driving. But step back for a moment and acknowledge that there are different types of drunk. You know which kind is going to get you into to trouble and which kind won't. Or at least you should by now. examples: stumbling, spitting, angry drunk is going to get you in trouble. happy, fun loving drunk isn't likely to get you in trouble. a nice buzz is almost never going to get you in trouble. Is personal responsibility a concept that has gone missing from our culture? Why is this even an issue? We have common sense. We know right from wrong. If you're wrong, own up to it and take responsibility. If you've done nothing wrong, get me involved because I will have your back, and I will make sure that Curt knows that you're being treated unfairly, and knows the name(s) of the security personnel involved.
It's shyte like this that makes me want to go and enjoy the game elsewhere in the stadium. I haven't sweared (that wasn't to myself) once this season. I don't even do "wings of a sparrow", I hate having the responsibility for the person sitting 5 rows above me. Dammit I am a fan going to a game who sits in a section were people actually are into the game and I consider them freinds. I stand, I sing, I cheer, and now I have to babysit someone I can't see unless I turn around, and if I turn around I can not watch the game now can I. So what now we can't do two cheers big whoop. Its the fact that I now am scrutinized extra because someone else f.uked up. Yeah I did some stupid things in the past. I realized that I take the game too seriously at one point, and now I have to watch my back extra now because if I am deemed to be "drunk" and I let something slip out to myself, and the security guard just happens to be right next to me (which 70%) of the time they are, I now get kicked out. I am just venting, this isn't directed at anyone specifically.
Now you step back from seriousness for a moment. My statement was 100% joke about the drunk thing. I knew exactly what was meant. Thats why I said "hope its just the wording" and put a smiley face. Matt: I know I'm abbrasive at times, but I dont think it can be denied that that has nothing to do with what the sheriff has done to me twice this season. Each time my yelling was directed toward a player and/or line judge. He came to me and told me to settle down. I hadnt cursed or said anything "out of line". (Side note: Like John I let one F-bomb slip this year. The same sheriff heard it, came to me, said this was my one warning for the game, I appologized and he walked off.) So therefore I had broken no rule, no matter how drunk or abbrasive I was. No one should have to change their attitude, volume or tone just because it upsets some others. Period. Thats one of the reasons for giving us the Cauldron, so we can be as passionate and loud as we want without disturbing the other fans. It shouldnt matter if it disturbs the employees of the stadium, as long as I'm not breaking a rule.
Dude all I am saying is they know who you are, they have a rather small history, and your an easy target on the front row. I don't see the point in arguing with the guy, and he would love to put down whitey to show that he is now "the man". Say ok, and let it be.
File this under "empty threats". The bigger picture is being overlooked in favor of minor details and personal blame. The numbers of the group and the money spent will prevent this vacant threat from becoming a reality. It matters so little what whoever did in reaction, or what the tenor of the group is. Group growth would be affected also, but that's another thread. Certainly beer can't be thrown, but to make 114 alcohol free is just laughable. The very last thing CJ will do is put into jeopardy the main source of any atmosphere and his single highest renewal rate of any block of fans. The only thing he could do is lightly threaten what he apparently considers to be the most important aspect of this problem, the alcohol, so that's what he did. CJ will continue to act in a manner befitting the groups actions. If the actions become different his reactions can be dictated. Understand, CJ couldn't care less about a being thrown. His concern is that someone sees it and decides not to return with family and wallet in tow. That effects his income. The reality is that if beer was prevented from 114, nothing would change of any consequence except a little concession revenue would be lost or people would sit elsewhere. This is diametricly opposed to CJ's goals. This is another reason why nothing was banned. There will probably be a camera of sorts on 114 at all times now, however. I would also suggest that engaging the security personal in any way is not only a waste of time, but will be counterproductive, especially after this incident.
I had a thought, and I wanted to make sure I had my facts straight before posting. Earlier this season, I sat down with Gene Barr, Manager of Stadium Security for Arrowhead and interviewed him about the risk management policies in Arrowhead. Even though some of the security staff at Arrowhead is hired, there are sworn officers, many of whom posess a Class A license, which means they can arrest on Probable Cause. Although I realize that much of what Matt says is true, we have to be careful. Something to think about... I know that when the Barra Brava had problems with security at RFK, they sat down and met with the contractor that provides security. That may be a good idea here. Kevin, I'd be happy to put you in touch with Gene Barr, so that we can try to make arrangements with the people assigned to our section. If they realize that we can manage to keep ourself under control, they might treat us a little better. Also on that same note, is there any way we can arrange for a confetti cannon to be put in the Cauldron? That way we can try to direct the confetti away from the field...
Ben, I didn't get the joke. I'm sorry about that. Matt, no one is asking you to be responsible for the person five rows behind you. All I'm saying is we can't cover for people. Because then it is as if we all made the mistake. I'm talking with Curt about getting a new sign at the entrance to The Cauldron that will let anyone who enters know what is going on. Something along the lines of this one that stands at the entrance to The Fort at Gillette Stadium. http://members.cox.net/~imaginationforhire/Fort_Sign.jpg Credit goes to Roush for finding the link and suggesting the idea.
I actually started working on the sign as well... The only thing that would make it better is if I had a clean copy of both the Wizards' and Mystics' logo.
Exactly, what I pointed means we have to be extra careful because of the listed traits points to a chip on their shoulder. Great idea on a sign. Something like that would be pretty darn cool. Anything is better than the Red on black one. I realize that I am color blind, but does anybody else have a hard time reading it?
Re: Re: Response from Curt Johnson It just blends in with all of the red in Arrowhead so I don't notice it unless I'm looking for it.
I'm the one Hey everyone! I'm the blonde guy that got ejected Saturday. Spoon, you think YOU'VE had a rough weekend?!? What's going on with me and my ejection/lifetime ban borders on the inconceivable! I'm glad I found this forum since it seems the KCWizards.com forum mysteriously disappeared today - the same day I told Gene Barr I was gathering support via the forum! They are TOTAL NAZIS!!! They make up the accusations, make up the rules on my ejection, and then won't let me SEE the rules concerning ejection. But what Gene DID say is, it seems the actual ejection procedure WAS NOT followed correctly. Normally when someone gets tossed, they are supposed to be told WHY they are being tossed, and then get a chance to DEFEND the accusations. I got neither. They (security and the sheriff deputies) refused to tell me why I was being moved. Obviously, if I don't know why, there's little chance to give my side of the story. Also, if procedure HAD been followed, I would have been able to gather support of the witnesses who were sitting right there!! But instead I'm forced to beg people who saw what happened to stand up so I can try to prove my innocence. Bottom line...my rights were violated by people who already judged me guilty without ANY proof! Also, security refuses to let me read or know the actual accusations. So really, I don't know exactly what was said about me. But at the very last second, when I was being "tossed to the curb", I finally got an answer. The accusation...? I "exposed" myself. That's it. That's all I know. By now, it's assumed that some kid/guy sitting unsupervised in the next section was offended at my/our yelling, so he started yelling back at the Cauldron. I explained that I was yelling at Brown because he was playing so poorly. I guess he didn't understand, because he kept yelling and staring back at me. So I finally suggested that he stop staring, lest his boyfriends get jealous. After I said that, he got up and ran away. That's it. That was the whole incident. So this kid (or his parent) invents these insulting, embarrasing charges, and based on their word, I'm banned for life. Just like that. Are the people in charge at Arrowhead so pitifully gullible? Gene said that as long as "the charges are believable" they will act on them. Gene told me something else...and this is the curious part...the parents didn't want to file actual criminal charges against me. Because if they did THAT, then I could counter with charges of false allegations. And that scares them!! What kind of parents would let a predator go like that?? Ones that are lying, that's who. What happened Saturday night was nothing short of an utter mockery of the "security" at Arrowhead, and a complete breakdown of fairness and decency. I urge anyone who saw the incident, and my resulting silent ejection to contact me so I can gain the support to reenter Arrowhead. I think it's sick that I have to scramble to prove I'm NOT a pervert, but right now I'm more concerned about not missing any more Wizards games. In the entire span of the team's history I've only missed two home games. I was a season ticket holder for the first five years, and I was even at the Cup. After I laid everything out on the table, I believe that Gene began to see the error that was made. But he said he's not someone who can overturn a ban, but suggested that I contact Curt Johnson, and tell him the scenario. It seems the moderators here have an open line of contact with Curt, so if you could assist with this, I would greatly appreciate it!
GREAT idea. That will save all the people that get pissed when we walk in and take our seats. Thats nice to know, that all it takes is believable charges. The security is a mockery of itself. The people that have responded are right, security should not be engaged. But when they engage the fans, the front office has to know about it, and protect us.