Referees, VARs and Assignment Discussion

Discussion in 'Euro 2020: Refereeing' started by MassachusettsRef, Jun 8, 2021.

  1. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I showed the handball clip to two national assessors/coaches yesterday and they were split.
     
  2. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    Next generation would be Gil Manzano and Hernández Hernández.
     
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  3. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Do we have more evidence towards #2? Because Kuipers and van Boekel get the other massive Group B match DEN : BEL with Blom being AVAR1 again.

    And then with Group C being much less interesting, we have Rapallini (ARG) and Grinfeld (ISR) getting the matches.
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, I think. The level of certainty ("preferred" to "clear error") varies among people, but I am hearing from various sources that Rosetti and UEFA wanted that called as a handball.

    Not sure you can say "much less interesting" given how the first matches went and what's on the line now, particularly in the Ukraine-North Macedonia match. That match might have less attention in Western Europe and elsewhere, but it could be quite something. I'm trying to determine if Rapallini is a brilliant or dangerous appointment for that match. Either way, should be fun to watch.
     
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  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also--and maybe this was laxed awhile ago and I didn't really notice--traditionally Belgian and Dutch referees didn't work each others' national teams because of the close ties and the fact, I believe, that there used to be a regular referee exchange between the two federations. With fewer Belgian stars playing in Belgium and Dutch referees no longer working in that league (I don't believe Kuipers has had a Belgium league match since 2011), it has become less of an issue. But the fact that the Netherlands is almost sandwiched between Belgium and Denmark probably helps make this assignment even more palatable.
     
  6. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And here I was hopeful that I gained understanding of the new handling law.
     
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  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #32 MassachusettsRef, Jun 15, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
    I have the same feeling. Though it's probably worth stressing we are talking about multiple subjective factors on one incident. The Turkish hand is a few inches lower or the arm is a few inches less extended and it's possible--probable, in fact--that UEFA concurs with the no call.

    It's a reminder that no matter what anyone else says or has you believe, we are talking about subjective decisions when we discuss handball. The fact that governing bodies are insisting on treating them as objective decisions is the problem here. If I were in charge, Makkelie faces no repercussions because he can't possibly see the incident and Blom gets praise because this is too close to send down as a clear error no matter what the original decision. But, as this post demonstrates, I'm not in charge.
     
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  8. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Were pretty sure if it was given that it wouldn't be a clear error. I can understand UEFAs opinion being that a pk is the preferred decision. If they think it was a clear error to not give it then I'm more confused considering the new language.
     
  9. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    The problem is that what constitutes a "clear error" is just as subjective as anything else. Really wish they would stop using that language/logic in determining whether or not something should be reviewed by VAR.
     
  10. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    In boxing, points are (were?) given when some majority of ringside judges hit a button. This might be amateur I guess, where points are (were?) given per blow struck.

    Maybe before a VAR check for clear and obvious error (maybe call it, "We are not amused"), three of four officials should have to hit a big red button indicating they thought it was clear and obvious. Or hell, hit a gong. "We'll be right back, with more stuff!"
     
  11. djmtxref

    djmtxref Member

    Apr 8, 2013
    I only think that works if you are an assassin for the CIA.
     
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  12. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Going to have the Spanish pair for Group D. Cerro Grande on CZE : CRO and Mateu Lahoz on ENG : SCO.
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Cakir is FO in London. Given travel restrictions I’d suggest there’s no point in an elite referee entering a country like the UK unless he’s staying to referee a match. So I expect to see Cakir on the Group D match that matters most on MD3.
     
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’d also expect the English pair on the next set of Group F matches at this point. If Oliver doesn’t land there, one would have to start wondering about his use at all. A MD2 Group F would still allow for MD3 Group E.
     
  15. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    Me too - UEFA already used Mateu / del Cerro in the same group so that would stand to reason.
     
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  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Group B matchday 3 is going to be something no matter how you slice it and regardless of what happens in Denmark-Belgium. It's probably a prime example of less marquee teams in an overlooked group leading to huge matches.

    If you presume Oliver goes to Group F, Kovacs is the big mystery insofar as a referee getting his first match. He's in Saint Petersburg now as a fourth official. I only see three possible options for him:

    A) He flies to Seville right now for Spain-Poland on Saturday
    B) He heads further east for Switzerland-Turkey in Baku on Sunday
    B) He stays in Saint Petersburg for Finland-Belgium on Monday

    None of them seem like good options, honestly. Finland-Belgium is maybe the best fit?
     
  17. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    I'm sure several will know better than I; I'm curious why 4O is typically not from the same country as CR/ARs. Is it so there's a mini-exchange in every match?
     
  18. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Because there's only a few countries that have multiple referees at the event.
     
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  19. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Off topic, and I know he eventually said he made it all up, but "parody game show host" would have made for the greatest spy/assassin cover in history. Heck, Mike Myers should have done this in the Austin Powers movies!
     
  20. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No surprise it's the English pair in Group F. With England perhaps having less VAR depth that other major nations, it means Taylor is paired with Attwell and then an all Spanish AVAR crew.
     
  21. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    The Hungary France appointment for Oliver means that basically he will get one more game and no knockout matches.

    It won't be a repeat of 2016 where Atkinson got a knockout match.
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd reach the exact opposite conclusion.

    His match is on June 19th. He can't work Group F again. He obviously can't work Group D. And June 21st is too quick of a turnaround for him. So quite literally the only Matchday 3 games he could work are Slovakia v Spain or Sweden v Poland. And that's still a quick turnaround.

    The way I read it is that he was held for a late MD2 game because he's implicitly trusted on a R16 match (and probably no more). All he has to do is pass the test in Hungary and he gets a knockout match. To put a finer point on it, those Group E matches are likely to be just like knockout matches in a lot of ways. If UEFA was willing to squeeze Oliver in twice within 4 days to do a consquential group stage match, surely he is trusted to do a knockout match, too.

    Oliver is in that tier of referees who comes from a big league and can handle a knockout match but has no hope of getting the Final. UEFA is assigning him accordingly, in my view. Protect him as much as possible in the first round, give him a game where only one of the teams (France) is likely to even be in the knockout stages, and then leave him wide open to do almost any second round match (not involving England or France, of course).
     
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  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #48 MassachusettsRef, Jun 17, 2021
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2021
    So at this point I'd guess:

    HATEGAN for Switzerland-Turkey
    BRYCH for Italy-Wales
    KOVACS for Belgium-Finland
    TURPIN for Russia-Denmark
    VINCIC for Ukraine-Austria
    SOARES DIAS for North Macedonia-Netherlands
     
  24. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Group A MD3

    Switzerland : Turkey - Vincic (SVN)
    Italy : Wales - Hategan (ROU)
     
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  25. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Group B
    Russia : Denmark - Turpin (FRA)
    Finland : Belgium - Brych (GER)

    Group C
    North Macedonia : Netherlands - Kovacs (ROU)
    Ukraine : Austria - Cakir (TUR)
     
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