Thought you guys would get a kick out of this: http://forums.menshealth.com/thread.jsp?forum=1&thread=86339&start=0&msRange=100 Scroll to the end (not the "pussification" remark, altho I'm also proud of that one). One of my better rants IMO
Hey lets turn this into the first ever conservative only thread. The libs have like 10 going right now so lets enjoy this. Hey don't you guys love massive tax cuts? Lets bomb dem A-rabs! Liberals stay out!
Heh, it's possible--I heard it somewhere, don't remember where exactly, altho I remember using the phrase "the pussification of America" on here about a year ago altho I don't remember what context it was in (I believe it was on one of the soccer boards actually)...sorry if I did unknowingly rip it off you, your royalty check is in the mail
One of your problems, Manny, is that you really seem to think that people can be divided into a mere two mind-sets, conservative and liberal, which govern their beliefs on every issue imaginable. That's a failing of the political party machines as well. Anyone who is in complete agreement on every issue with any particular party platform is clearly someone that does not know how to think for himself. As evidenced by the thread on the Army reservist who went AWOL to avoid losing custody of two step-children, you will find many so-called "liberals" who agree with the notion of personal responsibility. Similary, I imagine many liberals beside myself agree that obesity does not deserve protected status, or should be labeled a "disease". I have always contended that alcohism also is not a "disease", and the psychiatric community does a disservice to alcoholics in allowing that term to be used, since it shifts focus away from where it belongs - personal behavior and responsibility. Just as with obesity. You really need to be more open-minded and not put words in other people's mouths before they speak. You may actually find other people agree with you. Occasionally.
Why should the focus be on "personal responsibility" when over 98% of obese people are not able to lose weight in the long term? "Personal responsibility" is nothing more than code words for cruelty and selfishness.
Not able??? Or not "willing"? There's a secretary here in my office that must be pushing 400 pounds. She walks with a cane. She has a special psuedo-handicapped shuttle service pick her up and take her home, for which she leaves the office early in order to avoid the bustle of quitting-time traffic. She expects an elevator to make a special trip to get her in case of a fire or other emergency, rather than descending down the stairs like others (including another secretary, who is at least 350, but willing to walk the stairs to save her life in an emergency). You don't think she's "able" to lose the weight? Maybe that's because she cooks bacon in the office microwave every morning, which she has with a plate of other food. Maybe that's because when lunchtime hits, she walks into the cafeteria with a shopping bag full of food. And is it healthy food she's eating? I think the bacon example is enough to clue you in that it's not. But she's not "able"? Bull. She's not willing. Am I supposed to feel that it's my responsibility to care for people who did nothing to care for themselves? Then call me cruel and selfish.
So what do we do about people like that? Inevitably the complications associated with obesity will prove a drain on our healthcare system. Regardless of the cause, this is a significant problem. What can we do about it, other than laughing and name calling, which are fun, but don't really address the issue?
I never said anything to support name-calling. I just don't support calling behavioral issues diseases, or handicaps. What benefits does calling it a disease create? That might accomodate them in their obesity and make life easier for an already obese person (handicapped parking was mentioned), but that doesn't address the problem in the slightest of how to stop people from becoming obese, or how to get them to lose the weight. We can't force overweight people into clinics (so called "fat camps") to address their behavior, or force them to receive stomach staples, like Carney Wilson. Other than a personal choice to change, as difficult as that might be, I think the type of steps that would be most beneficial, but maybe hardest to accomplish, would be cultural change which shunts people away from fast-food, junk-food, etc., and which encourages exercise. This is a culture where 3 year olds going to pre-school are dragging roll-along "backpacks" behind them, instead of carrying them on their back. Everything shouts convenience and self-gratification, self-satiation. Is it any wonder that more Americans are obese? Maybe drug-research can help in the long run. I'm not talking diet pills, per se, but addressing the chemicals in the brain that affect behavior, or willpower. I've never been a fan of behavior-altering drugs, but it is an avenue that might be explored. I don't think anyone is shutting the door to potential solutions. But the first and most effective solution is going to lie with the individual that actually faces the choice of putting that piece of food into their mouth.
C'mon Ben, lets not rehash the "McDonalds" thread that was here 2 months ago. Certain obese people, few I might add, have a physical conditions (thyroid problems, etc) that cause obesity. Others are predisposed via bad genetics. Others are simply lazy gluttons that indirectly are "rolling the dice" to see if they have long term side effects down the road.. Something can be gained from looking at europeans. The obesity level is much less due to sensible lifestyle habits and sensible portiojns.. Ben, when all is said and done, you really have to educate people, and stop making excuses for peoples behavior and let them make decisons for themselves.
Wow, you surprised me by sneaking an actual solution in there: education. What would you propose? We had a required "health" class in high school - but that was mostly sex ed and was entirely useless. Who do you think should be responsible for educating the public? Should it be done through schools, or through a sort of ad campaign? Maybe the government should offer free fat "rehab" to all obese people. I also recall we had Presidential physical fitness tests in high school. The future governor Arnold had promised Bush the First that he would whip America's youth into shape, and the result was they counted how many chin-ups we could do and timed us running a mile. Then, presumably, they reported the results back to Washington. Didn't seem to accomplish much though.
As opposed to the rest of the time, when you're a jackass by accident? (sorry - that was an opening no one could resist!) As Al Franken would say, "I'm kidding!!! (on the square)"
Well, it is a common theme that people are motivated by $$$, so you could offer health insurance rebates to those who keep their body in decent shape for their age and can pass certain tests every so often..
Just what we need. Another 'Al-Franken-wannabe'. Trust me, one Al Franken is more than enough for our weary world.
Actually, obesity is huge problem in Europe, and getting MUCH WORSE. The difference, such as it is, has much more to do with their transportation systems than any sense of nutritional self-restraint.
Again, over 98% of obese people are fail to lose weight long-term. Most of these people would give anything to be thin (and spend billions on diet materials). Aside from sumo wrestlers, I don't know of many people that want to be fat, or alcoholics for that matter. Dealing with these problems as diseases (which they are, strictly speaking) requires that we (society) at least attempt to resolve these issues. "Personal responsibility" is nothing more than argument against helping people. It's most commonly used against the poor. Nobody wants to be fat, nobody wants to be poor. The incentives for correct behavior are firmly in place.