Random Postings Regarding WC Selecoes Past

Ola Galera.

Happy New Year to all.

Its been somewhat slow on the Brasil boards from what I can gather.

If there's anything that galvanizes Selecao fans its a WC. Let's use this thread for interesting informational tidbits about WC Selecoes past. Whatever you happen to read, know or hear (reliable sources of course) that you found interesting. Feel free to comment on posts as well...this should be free-form in nature.

Hopefully we can get a good number of contributions up until Germany '06.

 

I'll start off with a discussion I was having with Gregoriak regarding depth of talent on the 1966 squad versus this current squad
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1966 - Talent must still be properly managed

I recorded a panel discussion on Globo several months ago on my TIVO, but just saw it this week as I was making space on my disk drive. A round table of experts were discussing the fact that Brasil’s current squad was going into WC 2006 as clear favorites. The question was posed as to whether this cause for optimism was warranted. Sergio Noronha (sp), who has covered cups since 58 and is an incredible historian of Brasilian football (though many think he is not the most insightful in his match-day commentary), said that without a doubt they should be viewed as favorites - given the level and depth of talent available and their showings on the field to date. He felt that there was cause for such optimism.

He did add that this was not a unique situation. He claimed that a similar set of factors – an incredibly deep talent pool of young and veteran players from which to choose from – was present in 1966! At which point he named off the top of his head name after name of great players. He said that Brasil could have sent 4 different squads all capable of contending. He said optimism back then also had been very high.

He remembered going to the Selecao training grounds try-outs right before the final team went to Europe. He said there were 44 players fighting for a spot (this is confirmed in my History of Selecao book) on the final FIFA mandated roster limits. He said it was pretty chaotic for journalists to cover these training session, as every day the composition of the teams were shuffled. He claimed that there were so many wonderful players at the same level that their only sense of which team was the coach’s A team from day to day centered on which team Pele was on.

Today most followers of the Selecao can name at least 8 of the probable 11 starters in Germany (barring injury). He pointed out that no matter whether Brasilian’s agreed with Parreira’s selections or tactics, they had to be grateful that he has been consistent in his methods.

 

1970 - Keys to the 5x10s
[from part of a previous post almost a year ago...why re-create the wheel?]
https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=3732178&postcount=46

Ever wonder how it really came to be that Gerson, Jairzinho, Tostao, Rivelino and Pele ended up playing at once, and how their functions were determined leading up to Mexico 1970?
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If you can read Portuguese, here is a fascinating page on the Selecao ’70 http://www.netvasco.com.br/mauroprais/futbr/copa_70.html. You will see that WC’70 preparation was also full of intrigue and confusion (Zagallo came in as a last minute replacement). [This whole page is a great read -- from qualifiers, to pre-WC controversies, to each games synopsis.]

We understand that it was not Zagallo’s intentions to go with the famed 5x10’s line-up (he viewed Tostao and Pele’s roles as duplicative), and that it was Pele who orchestrated to make sure Tostao could shine with him in the practice sessions and win him a starting spot.

There is a passage in that link (which I will translate here) that perfectly illustrates the final, and maybe most important reason, why Pele’s contribution in the ’70 was vital.

[Bracketed comments are my editorial]

Às vesperas da última partida do Brasil com a Áustria, no quarto de Pelé, reunem-se com ele Gérson, Clodoaldo, Tostão e Rivelino. Conversam durante mais de uma hora. Placar número 8, de maio de 1970, conta o que se decidiu então. Algo que mudaria a sorte da Seleção Brasileira:

On the eve of the final friendly against Austria, Pele, Gerson, Clodoaldo, Tostao and Rivelino met in Pele’s room [note where the meeting took place, and the fact that the figurative captain, C.Alberto, was not present]. They spoke for an hour. Placar [Brasilian sports journal] edition number 8, dated May 1970, relates what was decided. It would change the outlook of the Selecao.

A principal preocupação era não deixar o time jogar sem ponta-esquerda. Ficou decidido que Tostão deveria cair por ese setor e deixar Pelé entrar pelo meio. Clodoaldo deveria avançar, pelo meio, para combater os austríacos em seu próprio campo. Rivelino deveria atacar bastante, tanto pela esquerda como pela direita (e ele acabou marcando o único gol da partida pela direita). Pelé procuraria ficar sempre pelo meio, sem sair para as meias: esses setores deveriam ficar para Gérson e Rivelino. Pelé teria ainda de tabelar com Tostão, provar que essa tabela é possível, mesmo sabendo que Tostão ainda não estava totalmente em forma e que os dois estavam desambientados. A Gérson caberia comandar tudo. E ele foi realmente o verdadeiro técnico. Gritou, orientou, comandou, instruiu.

The principal preoccupation was not to let the team play a scheme without a left-wing [one of Zagallo’s first move was to replace Edu, the left-wing who had played the whole WC Qualifiers with Rivelino, but not as a positional replacement, rather as an additional midfielder]. It was decided that Tostao would drift to the left, leaving Pele in the middle. Clodoaldo would advance, through the middle, to take on the Austrians in their half of the field. Rivelino would attack frequently, both from the left and right wings (he ended up scoring the only goal from the right). Pele would seek to remain in the middle, and not move back into the midfield [notice the tactical change in Pele’s role; he would force himself to stay closer to the front and center. This is why people with limited Pele game footage are confused as to his actual position over the majority of his career. Hopefully enough people will see Pele, Eterno to realize this]: these sectors would remain for Gerson and Rivelino. Pele was to seek to effectuate give-and-go’s (one-two’s) with Tostao, to prove that this one-two combination was viable, knowing full well that Tostao was not totally in match fitness and the two were not in synch [due to Tostao’s layoff from eye surgery]. It was left up to Gerson to command everything. He was the real coach on the field. Yelled, oriented, instructed.

O improviso substituia a rigidez dos esquemas. Daí para a frente, o time brasileiro jamais voltaria à inflexível formação do 4-3-3. Do ponto de vista tático, estava dado um passo para a vitória.

Improvisation would substitute rigid tactical schemes. Going forward, the brasilian team would no longer return to an inflexible 4-3-3. From a tactical perspective, a step forward to victory had been taken.

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In Tostao’s own words from another source, corroborating the story. http://www.gazetaesportiva.net/idolos/futebol/tostao/polemica.htm

…."Zagallo não queria que eu jogasse com Pelé", confessou o atleta, anos depois….

“Zagallo did not want me playing with Pele”.

"Fui colocado na reserva e o Rivelino como titular, no lugar de Edu. Eu sentia que Pelé, o Gérson, o Riva, todos me queriam como titular. Aí tive uma chance. O Zagallo falou que ia me experimentar. Eu fui e joguei muito bem. No vestiário, pela cara dos companheiros, percebi que havia ganho o lugar", conta.

“I was put in the reserves and Rivelino as starter in Edu’s spot. I felt that Pele, Gerson, Riva, and all wanted me in as a starter. I had one chance, as Zagallo agreed to an experiment. I played well. In the dressing room, from the look on my teammates faces, I felt I had won a spot.”

"Foi Pelé quem me convenceu a jogar de centroavante. Era um posto de sacrifício e de grande responsabilidade. Depois de algumas tentativas que não deram certo, eu queria deixar a equipe", lembrou.

“It was Pele who convinced me to play centerforward. It was a position of sacrifice and great responsibility. After a couple of tries that did not go well, I wanted to leave the team.”

There you have it. IMO, no analysis that attempts to gauge the likeliness for WC victory of the Selecao ’70 without Pele can be complete without taking into account his leadership - on and off the field.

 

Has there ever been a Brazil Squad with more All-Time Greats than 1966?

I'll try an see if I can locate the full list of 44 that were invited to the combines.

 

Thanks for that. Amongst all of us we can accumulate of lot of these info from these various sources.

Seems that 2006 has a good group of leaders as well...maybe not one dominant personality, but a group of 4 or 5 with some degree of rank.

 

Thanks Elado. Missed chatting with the galera as well. Good to be back.

Denilson70, provided is the complete list of 44 at the 1966 combine:

Roberto Dias, Bianchini, Altair, Denilson, Brito, Ditao, Dino Sani, Djalma Santos, Bellini, Rildo, Flavio, Zito, Tostao, Gilmar, Valdir, Ubirajara, Fabio, Manga, Lima, Edson, Orlando, Celio, Silva, Leonidas (not that one), Pele, Servilio, Carlos Alberto, Murilo, Paolo Borges, Fefeu, Fontana, Alcido, Oldair, Jairzinho, Edu (16 years old), Nado, Gerson, Djalma Dias (Djalminha's father), Fidelis, Garrincha, Paulo Henrique, Parana, Ivair, Rinaldo.

Curiously, it seems that the CBD invited the wrong player in one case. Wishing to call-up Ditao of Corinthians, they instead mistakenly invited his brother of Flamengo. Notice also no Rivelino (a relative youngster) or Coutinho in the 44.

According to Ivan Soter (Enciclopedia da Selecao...highly recommended book) Brasil was awash in expectations for the tri due to the excellent retrospective of the Selecao in 1965 (having beaten among others USSR, Hungary and W.Germany).

 

In the days when Brasilian footballers stayed home European teams of note(both NTs and clubs) would regularly shedule games on Brasilian soil. When's the last time that happened?

To give you an idea of the relative depth of talent that existed at the time, consider this "Made in Brasil" story. [Made in Brasil as much for the hubris of the CBD as anything else].

On June 4, 1965 the Selecao beat USSR in Russia at Lenin Stadium by 3x0 (Pele, Flavio, Pele). The return game was scheduled for November of that same year.

On that day of November 21, 1965 Brasil played two games. In Rio, at the Maracana, the official Selecao played USSR; and in Sao Paulo, at the Pacaembu, a select team of players only from the Paulistao (not on the Selecao) played Hungary!

The Paulistao select team wore the official blue uniform of the CBD (the second uniform...the yellow being the first of course).

Below are the team rosters. Players in ( ) came in as substitutes. Each Brasilian player's team and championship is added to end of his name (RJ-Carioca League, SP - Paulistao).

Maracana Bra:2 USSR:2
USSR: Yashin, Ponomariev, Shesterniev, Danilov, Voronin, (Khusainov), Afonin (Khurtzilava), Metreveli, Sabo, BAnishevski, Malofeyev (Meshki), Kopayev

Brasil: Manga-Botafogo RJ, Djalma Santos-Palmeiras SP, Bellini-S.Paulo SP (Mauro-Santos SP), Orlando-Santos SP, Rildo-Botafogo RJ, Dudu-Palmeiras SP (Roberto Dias-S.Paulo SP), Gerson-Botafogo RJ, Jairzinho-Botafogo RJ, Flavio-Corinthians SP (Ademar-Palmeiras SP), Pele-Santos SP, Parana-S.Paulo SP

Goals: Gerson, Pele, Banishevski, Metreveli

Pacaembu Bra:5 x Hungary:3
Hungary: Gelei, Novak (Kapostza), Meszoly (Matrai), Sipos, Sovari, Solymosi, Rakosi, Gorocs (Albert), Bene, Farkas, Fenyvesi

Brasil: Felix-Portuguesa, Carlos Alberto-Santos, Djalma Dias-Palmeiras, Procopio-Palmeiras, Edilson-Portuguesa (Gerladinho-Santos), Lima-Santos, Nair-Portuguesa (Rivelino-Corinthians), Marcos-Corinthians, Servilio-Palmeiras, Prado-S.Paulo (Coutinho-Santos), Abel-Santos

Goals: Servilio, Servilio, Lima, Abel, Nair, Bene, Solymosi, Albert

Dj Dias is Djalminha (ex-La Coruna)'s father. Notice Rivelino (up and comer) and Coutinho (established star) are subs on the Paulistao select.

Bra x Hungary line-ups at WC 1966.
In RED are those that participated in the Pacaembu game in 1965.

Hungary: Gelei, Matrai, Kapostza, Meszoly, Sipos, Szepesi, Mathesz, Albert, Rakosi, Bene, Farkas

Brasil: Gilmar-Santos SP, DJ Santos-Palmeiras SP, Bellini-S.Paulo SP, Altair-Fluminense RJ, Paulo Henrique-Flamengo RJ, Lima-Santos SP, Gerson-Botafogo RJ, Garrincha-Corinthians SP, Alcindo-Gremio RS, Tostao-Cruzeiro MG, Jairzinho-Botafogo RJ

We know that the Selecao w/o Pele lost to Hungary the following summer in England. Maybe Brasil would have done better to send the 1965 S.Paulo select team

1965-1966 is also when you start seeing other states invade into the previous hegemony of the Rio - S.Paulo axis domination of the Selecao (RS - Rio Grande do Sul, MG - Minas Gerais).

 

Correct, its not counted as an official international game; though its not clear that it wasn't originally meant to be.

Had they travelled to Brasil on a multiple-game tour this might make sense, but it seems indeed odd for Hungary's internationals to travel that far for a game against a Paulistao select (it was the only game they played).

 

As a follow-up, I noticed this interesting factoid on IFFHS regarding England doing the same in the early years.

http://www.iffhs.de/?2b04f8320cf83e48d31748a71c07f33e17e33c0bf22c0bf1685da16b
England
In the late 1890's, the Football Association (FA) realised that it had so many highly talented English top players at its disposal that it could field two equally competitive national teams which could play full ”A” internationals against different countries on the same day. This occurred in 1890, 1891 and 1892, when the opponents in the Home International Championship were Wales and Ireland. Neither was happy with this arrangement, but both sides observed the laws governing full ”A” internationals. These six encounters meet the criteria and thus qualify as official ”A” internationals. That these simultaneous matches interrupted the series of several English players was unavoidable.

I would surmise that Hungary probably (correctly) balked at any possibility of a full "A" international designation to the game once they saw that they weren't playing the top squad. They probably wouldn't have made the trip had they known.

 

1938 - It wasn't arrogance to blame for Leonidas' absence....

There is a popular myth that Leonidas was kept out of the 1938 WC semi final against Italy because the coach, Adhemar Pimenta, was sure of victory and wanted to rest him for the final.

The truth is that Leonidas pulled a muscle against Czechoslovakia, and it was improbable that he be well enough to play 48 hours later in the semis. Today, with player substitutions allowed, a player of his caliber would probably have played a portion of the game; but in those days he could only have started, and if lame, Brasil would have had to play with a man down for all intents and purposes. Pimenta did not risk it.

His natural subsitute, Niginho, was declared ineligible for the game by FIFA after the Italian delegation protested to the governing body that Niginho had deserted his club, Lazio, shortly before the WC. Seems that he had feared being inducted into the Italian army and hastily reatreated to Rio. The CBD knew this at the time and still called him up for the Selecao. Pimenta was then forced to turn to another player, Pelliciari, who was not a forward.

[Source: Enciclopedia da Selecao : 1914 – 2002, by Ivan Sotor. ISBN: 85-87199-05-6]

Don't you love this story?

Whether or not that made the difference in the 2-1 defeat we'll never know, but Leonidas had an interesting perspective (paraphrasing):

"I believe that my absence had a great influence in or defeat, not from a technical perspective, but from a psychological perspective.....I didn't always play well, but never accepted defeat, and fought my way through every game. In this way they felt might absence."

 

I'm with Ombak's Ronaldo sentiments, so am starting to worry about nagging injuries that seem to be popping up with him lately.

As far as leonidas' championing of Amoroso...I like. I've always liked his game, and he's experienced.

Wouldn't worry about Robinho; he may not have got into the groove at Real yet, but when he plays with the Selecao its another matter.

 

1958 - He's Dja Man

When the WC 1958 all tournament XI squad was announced Djalma Santos was the chosen at RB. Viewing it from a distance these many years later one would not bat an eye. However, did you know that the final was the only game Djalma played in that WC? That's right, he made the all-tournament team on the basis of exactly 1 game!

Djalma had been the starting Selecao RB for the 1954 WC which ended in the infamous Battle of Bern; but the 1958 WC began with De Sordi of SPFC at RB. De Sordi, an excellent player who garnered 22 caps in his career, indeed played well in all the games leading up to the final against hosts Sweden.

It's unclear why Djalma was brought in for the last game. Some sources say that De Sordi picked up a slight injury; others claim that Feola had an intuition that the more athletic Djalma would be more apt to deal with the Swedish left winger Skoglund (suposedly their best player during the tournament to that point).

Either way, Djalma not only earned the vote of the WC pundits in his one exhibition, he made the Selecao's RB position his to keep for almost the rest of his career - 98 caps.

Talk about making a second chance count.

 

Yes indeed dor02.

If you can read Portuguese here is a link about him: http://miltonneves.uol.com.br/qfl/index.asp?id_qfl=1236

For others - and those who will take part in Ombak's draft - the Milton Neves site is an incredible source for past Brasilian greats.