Racism in Soccer, can the MLS benefit from European ignorance?

Discussion in 'MLS: General' started by Bird1812, Apr 19, 2007.

  1. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Northern Ireland
    Club:
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    The majority are, though there is now a sizeable second, local born, generation.

    To London, nice, not to Fulham. So you admit they could support anyone in London if they wanted to.

    Why do Arsenal have more northern fans compared to other London clubs?

    So this supposedly racially motivated crime, don't happen to have a link do you?

    It's becoming clearer where you stand isn't it. Accusing the native English population of racism at every turn using the most specious of reasoning. When you look in the mirror the face of prejudice stares right back at you and the sad thing is that you don't even realise it.
     
  2. Bucky-O'Hare

    Bucky-O'Hare Member

    Feb 14, 2007
    Ireland
    Club:
    Derry City
    This is just getting boring now. Yes they live in putney across the river from fulhams ground, its where they lived since they moved there so yes. Is there any other reason why someone would put themselves tgrough the torture if they didnt feel tied to the club. I have no link to the attack, you'll just have to watch the film Ghosts. Im not accusing all the "native" english of racism far from it, but your saying it doesnt exist. Tell your neighbour Johny Adair I said hello.
     
  3. MyHouse!

    MyHouse! Member

    Mar 12, 2000
    Tallahassee
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think this thread has set arecord for the most posts by Englishmen in an MLS thread.

    Anyway I'll jump in for a bit. I find it interesting that certain posters have downplayed both the frequency and the impact of racist chants/acts by fans.

    I remember starting a thread in the World Rivalries section trying to get perspective from Europe about why certain acts are deemed acceptable and basically got the same explanations:

    They aren't really racist, just trying to get in the fans head
    It's only a few people.

    I'm sorry but if it's one person, it's too many. I think it's great that some fans are taking an active stance such as the banner displayed earlier in Munich. But too many do nothing and that's unacceptable.

    While England got all up in arms about the abuse Shawn Wright-Phillips and Ashley Cole got in the infamous Madrid friendly a couple of years ago, what was virtually ignored was John Barnes statement to the effect of "Let's all calm down, we heard the same types of things in the terraces of English stadiums not too long ago." He expereinced that first hand, especially in Liverpool where he saw "Liverpool are white" signs.

    What's also interesting is that those who bring up names of the few Black coaches there have been in England don't say anything about how after they lose their jobs they don't get re-hired. Jean Tigana watches more matches from his living room than I do since losing the Fulham job. Barnes? never got another job after Celtic. Same with Guillet. Yet white coaches (just like in US professional sports) were re-cycled (Hoddle, Redknap, Souness)

    I've been told that on a one to one basis, England deals with race better than the US does. My brother went over there on a basketball try-out and was staying a white woman whom he knew from college. Here, they would have been stared at as they walked together but it was no big thing over there. That's great. But I do think that historically, England have not had to deal with the question of race in the same way the US. The numbers of blacks and other minorities simply aren't there and the issue has not been so intrinsically linked in that country's history as it has the US'. That may explain the perception that some may have there is no race problem in England.

    However, the question of coaches and the history of racism in the terraces are legitimate concerns.

    Check out this book [​IMG]
    Pitch Invaders
    which spells all of this out.

    Still despite the insults, this has been a good thread because this stuff needs to be discussed.
     
  4. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Northern Ireland
    Club:
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    The big deal was that it happened 20 years previous and we went to great lengths to make sure that racism was severely reduced. That is unless you think that because it happened in England some time ago it's okay for it to happen in Spain today...

    Hoddle, Redknapp and Souness all have winning pedigrees and reguarly apply for jobs. Barnes was an utter failure at Celtic and then went to work in TV, much like a certain David Platt who, I'm sure you'll agree, is not black. Gullit again prefers to work in TV these days and as for Tigana, well, your ignorance betrays you. You see this is the problem with these kinds of debates, research your material before jumping in with both feet please.

    It's not that there's no problem it's just that it's different.

    No, the question of coaches is not legitimate. There's no evidence to suggest that it's a legitimate question it brings us back to Occam's razor yet again! The history of racism in football grounds is another issue, that is legitimate and is worthy of discussion but with out the 'lets tar all the English as racist' attitude that's been prevalent so far in this thread.
     
  5. Prenn

    Prenn Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Northern Ireland
    Club:
    Bolton Wanderers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    That's incorrect. Your conclusions are drawn from the assumption that all English people, or at least everyone connected with football, are racist because without that assumption you can't draw those conclusions. Racism does exist but your examples are asinine and wide of the mark.
     
  6. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Bucky O'Hare - troll or racist?
     


  7. Black money managers for sure:p
    By the way, you cannot drop into coaching after a players career. You need to be qualified. The Dutch have a reputable education for former soccer stars.
     
  8. MyHouse!

    MyHouse! Member

    Mar 12, 2000
    Tallahassee
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He got hired?!?!?!? GREAT!!!!!!

    Too bad no one else in England thought he could coach after bringing Fulham up.

    Thanks for non-supercillious response.

    But do be sure to check out Pitch Invaders. Good book that suggests that things really haven't changed in the 20 years you speak of.
     
  9. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    And after spending gobs of Al Fayed's cash once they were up with next to nothing to show for it... Throw in the fact that he had essentially unlimited resources to get to that promotion and I don't think you can say that Tigana was much of a success at Fulham. Additionally, do you know whether he actually wanted another coaching gig in England? It wasn't as though he stayed in England waiting for the 'phone to ring.
     
  10. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Also worth noting that Gullit did get rehired in England.
     
  11. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Gullit got another job almost immediately after being sacked by Chelsea. He was regularly linked to other vacancies afterwards and is now at Feyenoord. Gullit's wages were thought to be a problem, putting him out of the reach of most clubs, as he only wanted a top job.

    Tigana got a job at Besiktas about a year after leaving Fulham and I believe is still there.

    Keith Alexander has managed four clubs in England. Keith Curle has managed three. Carlton Palmer has had two clubs.
     
  12. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Well, number one the book is 9 years old... secondly, it doesn't argue that "nothing has changed", but that there is a long way to go before England can be called a true multicultural society.
     
  13. HTownSoccerGuy

    Mar 29, 2005
    Houston, TX
    well lets hope not. i would no way want to benefit from racism
     
  14. Bucky-O'Hare

    Bucky-O'Hare Member

    Feb 14, 2007
    Ireland
    Club:
    Derry City
    What was that M?

    I notice that your a card carrying eurosnob. So yourfrom america yet you support euro footballrather than watching your local team? If thats the case then your an idiot. Just like the many plastics in my own country.
     
  15. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    the problem is it seems that book is your only point of reference. If you dig for it you can find racism (or any social ill) just about anywhere. I heard a few unguarded comments from people in bars in the US that certainly surprised me when I was there. The important thing is being able to judge what is the exception and what is the rule.

    I've read reports on BS from Amercian guys coming over to watch games in England, and they've often said (presumably as a compliment) that there was no crowd trouble at the game. The implication was that they thought there was a fair chance there would be. That is all perception. Things do happen. It is not perfect, but the perception to outsiders is often that things are much worse than the reality.
     
  16. krayzie

    krayzie BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Dec 13, 2003
    Paris, France
    Why does every single european soccer thread turn to an England soccer thread ?

    Ignorance maybe... :rolleyes:
     
  17. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    lol... some wonderful assumptions thrown into that one :rolleyes:
     
  18. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    Maybe not in Europe but that's not an issue in the US. There are no requirements for MLS or USL coaches to have a coaching lisence issued by the USSF.

    It might help in the interview process, but the biggest qualification appears to be who you know. That, and not being black.
     
  19. MyHouse!

    MyHouse! Member

    Mar 12, 2000
    Tallahassee
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seemed like a pretty good, well researched point of reference.

    If there's another similarly researched point of reference out there that refutes it, that points to a dramatic change in the 8 years that you speak about, please advise. I'm certainly not above changing my view and quite frankly was disappointed to read what I did in the book, espcially in light of all the talk about how things have changed so dramatically due to 20 years of effort.

    I want to believe that the few real cool English that I've encountered playing the game and meeting in pubs here in states are the rule and not the exception when compared to the guys who treat me as if I have the plague.

    Thanks...
     
  20. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    Have you ever been to a game in England? Just wondering...
     
  21. Salop

    Salop New Member

    Nov 11, 2006
    Shrewsbury, UK
    The best researched point of reference that refutes it would be the experience of all the English posters on this board who've spent years going to games in England.

    But of course, if it's written in a book it's obviously true.
     
  22. Salop

    Salop New Member

    Nov 11, 2006
    Shrewsbury, UK
    Such a hypocrite.

    You say you're not tarring all the English with the same brush but then you a) accuse one poster of being a BNP voter for no good reason other than that he's from Bolton and b) make a stupid, utterly uncalled for, deliberately inflamatory referrence to a well known sectarian paramilitary leader.

    What was there to possibly suggest that Prenn has sectarian leanings?

    And for the record, your girlfriend's family are by no means unique. Fulham is owned by an Egyptian immigrant FFS. West Ham have many Asian and Jewish fans these days, anyone who's ever been to Upton Park could tell you that.

    You just seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder.
     

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