haha, its funny reading laudrup and macaluca owning Remi I also like how Remi posts about something but when someone responds to it he does not bother to respond back, for example he talks about Di Stefano yet when they bring up Kubala he never even says anything...its a good way to argue, if your losing just dont respond back to what they said. Anyways as much as I like reading you guys correct Remi I think you guys should stop, its obivious that he wont change his mind no matter how many people correct him so just let him cry
Actually it would be your buddies that have been using the tactic of switching the topic of argument, because Kubala has nothing to do with what I was talking about originally, which is Franco's invervention into the Di Stefano scandal. I also never claimed that Barça was a model for perfection either, but that still doesn't mean that bringing up lesser controveries makes Franco's involvement any less real. Some of you Madridista fans could use a lesson in logic.
Are you for real? Kubala has everything to do with Stefano. This is all part of the myth that Barca seek to perpetuate with their media wh@reing (remember the topic ). Everyone can tell you that Franco intervened to steal di Stefano...why can they tell you this?...because it is the story Barca have been peddling for the last half century along with the inference that Barca would have won 5 CE's if he'd stayed. Yet dig deeper and you find that 90% don't actually know what went on, they are simply repeating cule propaganda....the fact that the story you put forward was factually inaccurate seems to bear this out. Ask these 90% about what happened with kubala and most would not have a clue as the tale has not been subject to the Barca propaganda machine. I personally feel there is a connection there with what you were talking about and the topic...I'm sorry if you don't see it. Laudrup has explained to you the situation about the monarchy (better than I ever could...repped)...and still the best you can manage is... ....from that I take it you've given up on that argument. To be presented with all the facts and yet still remain skeptical and in denial is not a very coherent argument and is perhaps a better example of you switching topics than anything we have done. As i said before...I was not specifically talking about the last classico but about a number of games. A few weeks ago you were skeptical about RC ever being racially abused at Camp Nou until Alma (I think) pointed out he was sat in the stadium while it was happening...I am pleased to see you have now given up this argument. Regarding the shirt incident that you keep refering to...RC apologised for this and said he did not know the history of the guy involved. I am glad that you yourself have realised that 'Diary of a skin ' presents just one side of the storey and that the author may well have found similar things if he'd infiltrated Boixos Nois...you've saved me the trouble of putting that point to you. You have said that you don't believe Barca are whiter than white yet on every topic you seem to say 'well yes, but I believe it's worse at Madrid'....if that's the way you feel... fine, it's your opinion...but without supporting facts that's all it is , an opinion, and you presenting it as a deep analysis of Spanish football history will not cover that up. If you feel I have changed subject or not covered something please let me know and I'll do my best to oblige.
Come on now, in a one man dictatorship, whereby acquiring Di Stefano would bring 5 years worth of titles to the team that he valued as a symbol of Spanish identity, and you really insist he had no part in the scandal? That is quite frankly ludicrous. Certainly the details are up for dispute, but lets be realistic, it was Franco's government and he was free to do whatever he wanted to. Giving you the benefit of the doubt though, please describe to me how it is that Barcelona snatched Kubala out of the hands of Real Madrid, provide evidence of such a claim instead of going on and on about how you guys are "pwning" me with facts when all you have done is repeat the name Kubala ad nauseam whenever I mention the Di Stefano incident. As for the argument with Laudrup, he has not proved anything beyond the simple fact that the Monarchy had its assets frozen in Spain under Franco, but somehow, when all the European Royal Families and other Political Elites have had since the 1800's plenty of money deposited in Swiss Bank accounts we are supposed to believe they were truly bankrupt? That Juan Carlos had nothing but the shirt on his back when he moved back to Madrid? LOL, Come on, be serious. Really its a matter of believing bogus historical accounts vs. practical deductions. So it's pointless to continue to debate it any more really. No I can't prove without a shred of a doubt that the Monarchy payed off certain debts, I never made that claim, I just stated it was my belief, but neither can you prove the contrary. Very cunning of you to bring up a previous thread. Regardless I have been referring only to the last Clasico the whole time because the point you guys brought up is that Barcelona fans were still racially abusing players, which is a lie since that hasn't occurred since Boixos Nois have been thrown in disarray. And then you go on about how you are pwning me with "facts"... give me a break. As to the previous thread, fair enough, I was very skeptical that Roberto Carlos ever had suffered any racial abuse at all, why? Because I think he's a hypocritical scumbag who can't be taken on his word. Are you really going to just ignore the Valdo incident altogether? How would you like it if someone broke your ankle, then laughed about it and said they would break the other? Yeah..I know, you'd defend the guy when ever he complained about being racially abused in the future right? Yeah..right. Like I said before, if your contention is that the Kubala incident is more important to this discussion, then please provide concrete facts. Otherwise your speculation is just as valid as mine .
More apologies for the length of post but i did not want to be accused of evading questions Right if you can read through my posts and find where I have said franco's government was not involved in the di Stefano deal please point it out as I don't think I've ever said that (seeing as I don't believe it). I would say it is not clear whether Franco himself was involved as it is difficult to put a date on when he began to see RM as a means to an end. As Barca and Bilbao became an opportunity for vocal resistance in Spain it seems likely that he soon saw the need for a 'state ' team, but from when he came to power it would seem that Atleti were the ideal club to take on that role given its association with the military. From what we know it seems likely that it was Madrid's success in Europe that truly opened Franco's eyes to the benefit of having this team...and that as we know came after the di Stefano deal. However I would not be so stupid as to suggest that there was no government interference and that Franco was unaware of it, nor would I suggest that Bernabeu did not have friends in high places before this time, but much more likely is the idea that Bernabeu used his friendship with Minister for sport General Moscardo and his own Francoist contacts to get what he wanted rather than for Franco to personally intervene, but I will concede this is arguing over minor factual details rather than the bigger picture. The point I was making is that Barca have tried to build the myth of this story into a total explanation of all Madrid's successes. Which brings us onto Kubala. Kubala was first spotted by Madrid in a friendly and was offered a contract by Bernabeu. Kubala said yes, but wanted his brother (I think) to get the coaches job at Madrid. Although Bernabeu was not happy with the present coach he would not be backmailed and so the deal collapsed. Fast forward a year and enter Josep Samitier...a shady character who had played and worked for both Barca and Madrid. At this point he had returned to the camp Nou and arranged to meet Kubala who he had known from the earlier meeting while at Madrid. The story goes that he got Kubala so drunk before signing a pre-contract with Barca (I don't think any barca fan would deny he liked a drink ) that he was still out of his head when he went to sign officially by train (with the ever helpful Samitier by his side. Looking at a railway sign on the journey, Kubala enquired when were they going to arrive at Madrid? Though trying to find contemporary proof is difficult, I can at least quote the respected writer Phil Ball (as much an expert as any non-Spaniard can be on spanish football) ...."There seems to be ample anecdotal evidence that he actually thought he was finally destined for Chamartin..." If you had started your post with "I think" or "I believe" then maybe you would have a point, but you presented what you are now saying is mere opinion as absolute facts. You now say you can't prove this "without a shred of doubt" whereas I would say you can't prove it at all. I think it quite insulting of you to call Laudrups post "bogus historical accounts" when quite simply you have no answer and now want to end the debate. as for your "practical deductions", give me a practical deduction for this....If madrid had crippling debts, why did this state team, supported by franco, with a president closely linked to the government, and all manner of facist support (as you argue) not go to Franco for money?...and even more perversly, why did it go to Franco's nemesis, in exile for help...an act which would have put bernabeu in one hell of a hole if it came to franco's notice? My "practical deduction"...it didn't happen. What has the valdo incident got to do with the racism shown to RC in the Camp Nou? So maybe he's not a nice guy ...in my opinion neither is Etoo...but he doesn't deserve racism. Now your argument is that because barca fans behaved for one game we cannot talk about the past....though of course we can when you want to talk about the Ultra Surs, ignoring the work done by Perez with regards to anti-racism. If you had presented your posts as speculation rather than concrete facts, i probably would have just ignored you and your cule whinging.
Well, it looks like we've come to an agreement over DiStefano, since that is what I've been saying all along. Now won't you recognize that this was a huge turning point in the clubs history? Do you think they would have won 5 titles afterwards without DiStefano? As for the Kubala scandal, giving you the benefit of the doubt, who came out ahead in the entire ordeal? Regardless have I not said the entire time that Barça is not beyond criticism? But using the influence of a dictator to acquire a player is much worse in my view, especially if you are someone who advocates keeping politics out of the game. I never claimed to have any kind of monopoly on the "facts" as you guys seem to claim. I'm entitled to speculate just as you are that the club you support is free of any sort of corruption. I seriously think it's naive to assume the monarchy didn't aid its pet club at one point in its history, and as for your question of Franco, I wouldn't doubt that some dirty money was also given from him. It was his government, he could do whatever he wanted. I don't think any player deserves racism, but I'm also not going to give a damn about any of Roberto Carlos complaints until he publicly apologizes to Valdo, there's a reason I take that so personally, Osasuna is my second favorite Primera team. If you want to use the same judgment of Eto'o, fair enough, but I think he has more of a case, because Madrid really treated him poorly when he first came into the league. You Madridistas are really hostile you know that? You say that I'm whining, but all I've been wanting to talk about is in my view, the negative image RM promotes of a unified Spanish culture, which goes back to the days of Franco. Barça on the other hand says its "mes que un club" because they are helping to promote a minority culture that nearly went extinct 100 years ago and even today does not have a real international voice beyond a Football Club, which is not a good thing (in that the voice should be more than just a club), but it's the reality they deal with. This doesn't take away from RM's titles, and their historic accomplishments, and you have to admit I've been very complimentary of these things, more than most Barça supporters would be, but I do have a real problem with the RM = Spain international image they promote, which I think just hurts all the autonomous regions with their own cultural identities. If you don't believe me just look at who the majority of RM core supporters are. They are upper and middle class PP voters, and they support that party because it promotes a view of Spain as "Una, Grande, y libre" instead of the "Multi-cultural state" promoted by other political parties. That is what I meant when I said that the club has something of a carry over from fascism in its mentality, because a unicultural state is a concept that was promoted by Franco's regime which is still prevalent in the minds of most Madridistas. I don't think this is a healthy attitude, if you think it is, then we should move to a different board, because it would just be pure politics at that point.
I think we need to be reminded of one of your opening comments I think that is saying a lot more than Franco influenced a transfer (over which as I pointed out I have a few factual reservations but I'll let it go. We do not agree as there were other factors involved in this switch...Stefano realising the problems he would have had in playing alongside Kubala, the money Madrid were waving under his nose...yes Bernabeu had help in engineering the move but the fact is even without this help it is likely that di Stefano would have left Barca sooner or later. But yes this is speculation...which is what Barca have been peddling for 50 years....its all Franco's fault...absolute rubbish. I also find this attitude of you only won because of di Stefano a bit insulting to the other players...yes he was massive for us but it is impossible to claim we wouldn't have won 5 without him. Everyone of your opinions has been presented as though it is absolute fact, every time you are proved wrong you just say I'm naive...wild speculation (i'm glad it's no longer practical deduction) is not going to win a debate. So now you've changed your argument and claim that Franco AND the monarchy bailed out Madrid, despite 1....having no evidence of any money coming from the monarchy 2...having no evidence of any money coming from Franco 3...it being shown to you that the monarchy would have been unable to pay this money 4....presenting no evidence of debts ...oh OK then I guess that's a pretty watertight argument then. So it's carry on with the racial abuse until he apologises...just give this one up and condemn the racial abuse YOUR fans gave him...I honestly find your attitude on this repugnant. Yet because Etoo had a difficult time at Madrid it's OK for him to spit in peoples faces. We Madristas are not the ones who started a thread called 'R.Madrid = media whore'...strangely enough I do find that quite hostile. We did not say " Real Madrid is nothing more than a symbol of cultural genocide over 35 years of Franco's rule, and 4 centuries of Spanish Imperialism."...am I detecting a little hostility there. You say this and yet when I say you are whinging (not whining, but as you mention it...) you accuse me of being hostile...let me get a dictionary...oh yeah, I think I can describe that as whinging. Finally we come to the promotion of identity...yes madrid have become linked with the Spanish nation...it is a club supported throughout the majority of that nation (I read recently that Madrid has more members in Sevilla than Beti and Sevilla combined)...but throughout the world Madrid is seen primarily as a football club. Barcelona is completely different and to say it does not have an international voice above being a club is absolute rubbish. Remember that before FP, the marketing of Madrid was a shambles...ask most people around the world about Madrid and their first thought would have been 'a great team in the 50's'. Barca on the other hand has always sold itself across the world as 'more than a club'...it has had to due to the limited market it has available in Spain. To caim that Madrid is a media whore may be true recently (as with most clubs)...but Barca has been whoring itself around the world with a politically based brand for years. You yourself are playing the 'poor little Barca' routine about a multi- million euro brand which recieves the total support of (what it itself claims is) a nation-state.This is the club that attacks us for buying Beckham...while forgetting Laporta based his campaign on signing him. This is the club whose marketing prowess has turned Ronaldinho into a bigger commodity than Becks. This is the club who have turned the lack of a sponser on their shirts into the biggest shirt advertising campaign ever carried out, with weekly worldwide announcements of how much money they've turned down...50m...80m...100m...what next.. 'we've turned down 200m, a nuclear capability and ownership of Hong Kong'? This is a club that still sells itself on an anti-franco ticket nearly 40 years after his death. I find your last paragraph to be one of total hypocracy.
We were having a decent discussion until this last post, which is just ridiculous, you totally ignored the second half of my last paragraph which was my main point in the whole argument and just replied to what you wanted to, and then you guys say that I'm the one dodging arguments. Plus you seem to have a serious reading comprehension problem when 1. I never said that Barcelona fans have not in the past been guilty of racism, but Roberto Carlos is not some kind of special pity case, 2. I said that Catalonia as a minority culture does not have much of an international voice beyond FC Barcelona, which is 100% true, not Barcelona as you claim, which would make no sense. 3. That I have stated multiple times that you have not proven beyond a shred of a doubt that Franco and/or the Spanish Nobility have not meddled in financial club affairs throughout its entire history, and that I am free to speculate whatever I want to. And 4. I did not start this thread. Finally your claim that the majority of Spain supports Real Madrid is also laughable. So 20 million plus 1 Spaniards support Real Madrid right? This is just completely insulting to all other Liga fans and in my view is exactly the kind of snobbish elitism I've been talking about. As far as I'm concerned I won't be continuing this discussion if you're going to turn this from a civil discussion to an opportunity to just promote your club at the expense of all other Liga fans that aren't supporting Real Madrid. I hope you Madridistas can continue to find outlets to vent your frustration however, because it would seem that you've gotten a lot of built rage over what is ultimately just a sport.
You yourself said it would be better discussed in the politics forum...and then you attack me for not discussing it here... So condemn those attacks. My mistake...I misread what you said.However it remains a fact that while madrid is often seen within spain as representing a political ideology...the club has never branded itself in such a way and is certainly not seen as anything more than a great club outside of Spain. Barca (FC) on the other hand seems determined to brand itself as a political ideology and has been doing so succesfully for a long time....bringing politics into football is a necessary part of your clubs image. Fine as long as you state it is speculation. If you present an argument it is up to you to prove it. I can equally speculate that the Catalan establishment and government has meddled in the club's financial affairs throughout history. You did not say the part I've put in bold ...you claimed as a fact that the monarchy bailed the club out in the early 1960's..this has been proven wrong. You did not start it, (another cule did) but you were very quick to join in. Speaking of a serious reading comprehension problem....I did not say the majority of Spain supports Madrid...I said it is supported throughout the majority of the nation...ie...it has a national fanbase not just in Madrid...it does however remain the best supported club in spain. A civil discussion entitled 'R.Madrid = media whore'...hmm yes very civil. A civil discussion where you accuse my club of genocide...hmm yes very civil. A civil discussion where you still refuse to condemn your fans racist abuse...hmm very civil. As for promoting my club...i think defending is closer to the truth. In addition at no point have I spoke at the expence of 'other Liga' fans...you were the one who dismissed the teams I mentioned earlier as being insignificant. If you feel this is just a sport why did you bring Franco, the monarchy and politics (not to mention genocide)into a thread about media exposure....you seem confused as to what you want to talk about.
No I said if you did not believe the fact that core supporters are mostly PP voters, and by association support a unicultural view of Spain, then the issue would be better discussed in a Politics forum. But you didn't answer the point at all to begin with. Fine, consider the attacks officially condemned by me. But, I still think Roberto Carlos is a jerk. Don't confuse political ideology and cultural identity. The Majority of Barça supporters are not hardline pro-independence Catalans. And LaPorta is not pro-independence either, you think he wants Barça to play in a seperate Catalan league? Doubt it I said 60's and 70's. 60's may be more unlikely, but I think the 70s are certainly possible. And responding to your speculation, I'm willing to bet the Generalitat has probably meddled in the club's affair. But don't you think there is a big difference between a regional government's capabilites and a central state government's capabilites? Depends on what region, I know there are some Madridistas that can get away with living in Barcelona, but I'm not so sure the same holds true for Bilbao. I think it just varies mostly depending on what the particular region's strongest club is. But I think there's also no other club nationally that has so many fans against it either. So I guess it balances out. Don't blame me, I didn't name the thread. And I didn't dismiss any teams as being insignificant, all I said was you were right that there were more than a "few" teams with the "Real" label. And it is just a sport, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about the symbolic image a club promotes of itself and the possible reasons for it. But that also doesn't mean reacting with such hostility when it is ultimately just a sport. And at no time did I say "Real Madrid = Cultural genocide", what I'm saying is Real Madrid + Una, Grande y Libre = Symbol of the historical and contemporary repression of a multi-cultural Spain. And yes, this does go back 400 years, even if the sport doesn't. And a lot of that history does involve cultural genocide.
I would suggest that a lot of the older supporters are PP voters( though of course this is speculation on both our parts) as it is a party that people tend to lean towards as they get older (age seems to bring out the conservatism in people). However I would suggest this is true for a number of clubs in Spain. I would also suggest that the position of the PP with regard to the CCAA is in no way comparable to that of Franco and is in no way anti-multicultural, though it may not go as far as you would personally wish. I would suggest a lot of other fans are left, centre and apolitical...my own certainly do not fall in line with the PP manifesto. Anyway you are still unclear on what point you waht me to answer...If it is that because a number of core supporters carry this political view it is a view Real Madrid perpetuates then I would answer saying that this is not true. This image is one that is only pushed on them by certain sections in Spain for there own political needs...Madrid perpetuates nothing more than the image of a great club. Yes Madrid are proud to be Spanish but if you are saying this results in an unhealthy promotion of uniculture within Spain, you would have to level the same charge against Fernando Alonso, Raphael Nadal, sergio Garcia and all the Spanish sportsmen who lift their flag when winning titles and medals. Finally...and Etoo is a w****r. I don't doubt what you say is true, which is what makes the image Barca project all the more hypocritical....they sell this image of "Catalunya is not a part of Spain" as a means to sell the club yet the idea of independance is something that terrifies them. They are happy for the fans to chant support for an independant Catalunya yet know that given the vote they would oppose it. The majority of fans may not be hard line supporters of independance but there is a significant minority who are and you don't seem to want me to judge your club on those, yet are happy to judge my club on an even smaller minority of fans. Given the amounts of money we are talking about(a few million), and given that it would not only be local government but the big Catalan banks, money-men and businesses...the catalan Establishment....then no I don't think there is much difference in the financial capabilities. I was careful to say the 'majority' of Spain ...not all of it. Unfortunately I have to be the bearer of bad news for you...nationally I think you will find that Barca has just as many fans against it(probably more so) than Madrid. And in their case they do not have the geographical spread of support to balance it out. You'll hear 'Viva Espana' sung far more often than 'asi gana Madrid'. what you said was..."As for the number of clubs with the "royal" title given by the monarchy, only about half of the clubs you guys listed are in Primera, so let's stick to the highest level of competition in Liga if you don't mind." ...which I would say is dismissive of clubs with the history of Sporting, Oviedo and Valladolid etc. If i may quote you again..."Real Madrid is nothing more than a symbol of cultural genocide. " As for reacting with hostility, I'm sure you will agree football is a passionate sport , if you really believe that I,m going to read you making wild speculations, derogatory comments and false accusations about my club. and am not going to react with some hostility then I'm afraid it is you who is naive.
Guys, the Francoist regime stopped Barcelona from signing Di Stefano. They couldn't tolarete a successful Barcelona side and the displays of separatism Catalan fans showed when Barcelona was winning all those trophies, home and abroad. Had Barcelona signed Di Stefano as they had the right to do so, it is very likely that Barcelona not only would have kept winning trophies but would have won them more comfortably. The humilliation Barcelona received was much more than losing a top player. Barcelona won all their trophies during Franco's regime in spite of that regime, not thanks to that regime. I don't think one can say the same about Real Madrid.
If... if... if... how does that make us media wh@res (which I guess is what led you to this justly dead thread) today. I insist, read "How soccer explains the world", it has a very good take on Barcelona and Franco from a self-confessed rabid Barcelona fan. The results are not what you expect. By the way, your nick is the nickname of a Frenchman that was imposed as king of Spain by his brother against the will of the Spanish people. How ironic that you come here to lecture on opressive regimes.
I perfectly know were my mickname originates from, but that doesn't mean that I support, admire, Napoleon's brother. In fact I don't. Franco's regime intervined in the Di Stefano affair, and intervined primarely againts Barcelona FC, or CF Barcelona as they renamed them and that had a major impact in the success of both clubs. I can provide you with evidence, not a letter signed by Franco or Moscardo (dictatorships do not allow such a luxury) but with many facts that put together may make you think that the whole thing had a nasty smell. Obviously you have to be a little bit receptive in your nostrils to get it. As far as I am concern I have no problem debating with Madridistas or anyone and listen to their arguments on the subject, and I may even buy the book you are suggesting and see what I can learn from the author.
Ouch, how wrong is that Di stefano's only wish was to leave Millonarios and play for whoever agreed a deal with River Plate. That happened to be Barcelona, and in fact he did play for them a few friendly games before the Delegacion Nacional de Deportes decided that the player should play for both teams, first season for Real Madrid and then for Barcelona. Di Stefano's say on the matter was almost as negligible as that of Barcelona.
Barca actually agreed a deal to sell him to Juve, before Moscado brokered the sharing deal, which obviously would have left di Stefano feeling really wanted by the Catalans. I'm glad you mention the friendlies he played for Barca as this would seem to back up the idea that he soon realised his incompatability with Kubala. Saporta is on record as having gone to meet di Stefano on several occasions (while he was supposedly a 'Barca player') to talk to him. Saporta claims it was to talk about how Barca would be wrong for him...Di Stefano is very evasive on the subject...the supposition is that di Stefano was bought by some under the table cash. For obvious reasons this is supposition but the fact that Saporta met with him, seems to prove quite clearly that di Stefano did have a say on the matter. As I said, a very murky deal but unfortunately one that depends on a number of factors and is not as clear cut as you seem to think...still seeing as football historians have been trying to get di Stefano to clear up the full truth for 50 years and failing, congratulations to you for doing it so quickly . Anyway much as I'd like to go through the same arguments yet again, I tend to agree with Laudrup...this thread is dead.
Barcelona tried to sell their rights on the player to Juventus once the fascist DND ruled that not foreign players could be signed by Spanish teams. In fact Barcelona presented the transfer documents earlier than the law took effect but that is another "funny" matter on the affaire that we can discuss further if you wish. Ok, so playing a couple of friendly games when he hadn't played for months makes him realise that going to Barcelona is the wrong decission. That's funny. Di Stefano is very evasive on any subject concerning the affair. The only famous quote of him on the subject is "I only know that I came here to play for my friend Samitier". Of course Saporta met with him. Real Madrid were trying to get the player too, but he would had played for Barcelona had the Spanish authorities decided in favour of Barcelona. IN fact he was supposed to play for Barcelona for two seasons, so Saporta "half convinced" him only. Yes a very murky deal that ended up with Real MAdrid getting a player whose transfer rights belonged to River and that incidentally Barcelona had bought them. I can give you a lot of facts that appeared in the Spanish Press at the time, and that may make you think that Barcelona were clearly cheated. That's the conclusion I drew, and so many others, including Real Madrid fans.