Questions about Thomas Rongen job

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by whip, Sep 14, 2003.

  1. whip

    whip Member

    Aug 5, 2000
    How should a coach be rewarded or evaluated ? Should the fans use the game results to have a judgement about a coach performance? All this questions are coming into my mind after few minutes of reading about Mr Thomas Rongen performance with the u20 team against Colombia, hey guys a one or two goal lost, NOT TO WORRY, but !A 6 GOALS ASS WHOOP, guys this is ground for TERMINATION... no questions ask
  2. GersMan

    GersMan Member

    May 11, 2000
    I've been waiting 6 months for someone to finally come to this realization!!!!

    What, is the liquor store closed on Sunday or something?
  3. ChrisE

    ChrisE Member

    Jul 1, 2002
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    You know damned well it is.
  4. whip

    whip Member

    Aug 5, 2000
    Thats funny !!!! But seriusly

    Thats funny ! But seriusly why you did not said nothing about it ?? Pecker shy?? Job requirement ?? What is the problem with soccer boards ? whimp land ???
  5. Attacking Minded

    Attacking Minded New Member

    Jun 22, 2002
    So is this a preemptive strike from the Ellinger camp against the Rongen camp? Is Ellinger sweating so bad that it makes it's way to a soccer board?
  6. ED Fajardo

    ED Fajardo New Member

    Dec 31, 2001
    Ellinger couldn't coach the U-17's, no one in his right mind would hire him for the U-20's. Ellinger is just another in a long line of Gringo kick ball coaches who couldn't take the ball away from some of the better hispanic U-17 players if they had their boots tied together.
  7. Knave

    Knave Member+

    May 25, 1999
    ... !negoR eriF ...


    Sorry ... just a reflex from when he coached DC United. What's the issue here?
  8. whip

    whip Member

    Aug 5, 2000
    Re: ... !negoR eriF ... Issue????

    What do you mean what is the issue here ? Many fans are triying to clarify what is the policy of USSF towar a coach that just got his ass whoop like a red head stepson, or perhaps you could shed a light on the matter???
  9. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    First off, I don't know any coach who has been canned on the basis of one game.

    Remember, for most of the games that Rongen has with the 20s, he's experimenting and evaluating, seeing who works well together, who fits his scheme, who handles adversity, etc... In otherwords, coaching. Sometimes, in fact in Rongen's case, most of the time, the experiements end well and he gets a result. Sometimes he loses. And once, his team got its ass kicked. But it was only one game.

    The reality is that Rongen's record with the 20s is actually pretty good. I may have missed a game or two - hopefully davide or someone else can fill in any games I missed but I think this is most, if not all, of the results of the 20s under Rongen against other U20 teams. In those games, he is 11-8-7.

    1/9/02 Canada 1-0 Chula Vista, CA
    5/18/02 Quatar 1-1 Groningen, HOL
    5/22/02 Burkina Faso 0-2 Woudenberg, HOL
    8/2/02 Canada 1-2 Houston
    8/3/02 Mexico 0-0 Houston
    8/24/02 Brazil 1-2 L’Alcudia, SPAIN
    8/26/02 Italy 2-1 L’Alcudia, SPAIN
    8/27/02 Ukraine 5-2 L’Alcudia, SPAIN
    8/28/02 Uruguay 3-1 L’Alcudia, SPAIN
    8/29/02 Brazil 0-1 L’Alcudia, SPAIN
    11/13/02 *Haiti 2-0 Charleston, SC
    11/15/02 *El Salvador 1-0 Charleston, SC
    11/17/02 *Canada 2-3 Charleston, SC
    1/25/03 Mexico 1-3 Homestead, FL
    2/24/03 Colombia 3-6 Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    2/26/03 Colombia 0-0 Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    3/4/03 portugal 1-1 Machico, POR
    3/5/03 Norway 2-0 Camachal, POR
    7/29/03 El Salvador 3-0 Houston
    7/31/03 Honduras 2-0 Houston
    8/2/03 Canada 2-1 Houston
    8/21/03 Egypt 3-0 L’Alcudia, SPAIN
    8/23/03 Russia 1-1 L’Alcudia, SPAIN
    8/25/03 Slovenia 0-0 L’Alcudia, SPAIN
    8/27/03 Uruguay 0-1 L’Alcudia, SPAIN
    8/28/03 Russia 0-0 L’Alcudia, SPAIN

    * WYC qualifier

    In this process, he's looked at over 60 players, so given the fact he's been constantly mixing and matching players, 11-8-7 is pretty damn good. (Hell, the Rapids are 11-9-5 and have the third best record in MLS so a mark like Rongen's has really isn't that bad.)

    Look, Rongen ain't a perfect coach. If he were, he'd likely still be coaching in MLS. But, no one doubts that he has a great eye for talent and most MLS folks say he is very good tactically.

    He has six years of first division experience and taken three different teams to the playoffs and his resume has an MLS Cup, two Supporters' Shields and one APSL (the old A-League) title. He's had his share of failures but he's about as well-suited and well-qualified for the job as can be expected or hoped for.

    The other thing is, this isn't the most talented U20 team. Yes, it has some good players, but its core is from Bradenton and of the three generations of Bradenton players, the ones on this team - the 84s - had the worst showing at the U17 WC of any of the three Bradenton groups.

    Yes, it has some studs in Convey and Clark, and some potential stars but it isn't that deep and the defense isn't that strong though the inclusion of Whitbread hopefully helps there. But, compared to the U20 team that underachieved in Argentina or the one that Rongen should have - and with the next WYC in Holland, I'll be shocked in Rongen doesn't re-up - for the next cycle.

    At the end of the day, any coach is only as good as his players. Rongen has gotten a huge boost because the dealy of the WYC has given Magee, Clark, etc... a full year of MLS experience that will help greatly, Convey has played in some major competitions with the senior team and his college players are a little older and will be match fit when they get to the UAE.

    I expect that this team will be like most of our other U20 teams and make it to the second round and lose. Just like we did in 97, 99 and 01. But, while I expect people will call for Rongen's head after the team has the result I expect, I think he'll have done a good enough job to justify bringing him back for the next cycle.
  10. whip

    whip Member

    Aug 5, 2000
    Well... it is worst than I thought ... Sandon If USA were righ now a 100% soccer nation, lets say # 3 on the planet the fans could tolerate some this record but this is not the case. Sandon in USA soccer have enemies, powerfull enemies and this results are not atracting new fans into the sport. 11-8- 3 This is not NFL ! the situation of soccer right now require of more Landon Donovans on Jay Leno and Good morning america, More Bruces with better results our american kids deserve the best coach than money can buy and I know for a fact that with Thomas Rongen 150,000 salary we could get something better....
  11. whip

    whip Member

    Aug 5, 2000

    My opinion is that both should be replaced !
  12. GersMan

    GersMan Member

    May 11, 2000
    I can't believe this thread lives on.

    The match was at a camp in February. The defense didn't play well. They addressed some things and kept a clean sheet against the same team two days later.

    We had a story on the matches back when they were played, we just didn't use the always-compelling "six goal ass whoop" phrase which you are perhaps fixated on. I guess we don't use that phrase in "whimp land"

    This coach has had good reviews in this assignment, that's pretty universal.

    I would like to know more about this story of Rongen keeping Landon off the Jay Leno show. That would be some news right there.

    But again, why is this a thread now?
  13. lurking

    lurking Member+

    Feb 9, 2002
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sandon, what are the records over this period for Ellinger and Mooch? If this record is typical for US youth teams then thats one thing, but a pair of losses to Canada and a loss to Burkina Faso and a tie with Qatar make me wonder if this is in fact an acceptable record.
  14. whip

    whip Member

    Aug 5, 2000
    What about the negative press???

    So do you think that soccer in USA is in such a good shape that we can affort to be WHOOP like a redhead stepson and talk light about it like nothing is happening ....It seems to me that you are not aware of the amount of negative press that soccer have here. Wake up and smell the coffe amigo everytime any of our soccer team is defeated and I reapeat in general is affected in a negative way, pushing future fans away from it . I hope you are aware of this facts....
  15. TheSlipperyOne

    TheSlipperyOne Member+

    Feb 29, 2000
    Arsenal FC
    Re: What about the negative press???

    If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound?
  16. ChrisE

    ChrisE Member

    Jul 1, 2002
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    Re: Re: What about the negative press???

    How about "If an U-23 team loses 3-6 but nobody notices, does it ruin US soccer for all time?"
  17. GersMan

    GersMan Member

    May 11, 2000
    Re: What about the negative press???

    I was going to ignore your argument until you repeated the term "defeated" and typed it in all caps. Now I am persuaded you are on to something. I just wish I lived close enough to Tijuana to visit the same pharmacies.

    SteveE - you know damned well it does.
  18. ChrisE

    ChrisE Member

    Jul 1, 2002
    Nat'l Team:
    American Samoa
    Re: Re: What about the negative press???

    Word CeltMan.
  19. Sandon Mibut

    Sandon Mibut Member+

    Feb 13, 2001
    In 1999, Clive Charles' U23 team lost to Brazil 7-0 down there and fell to Mexico 4-0 in the Pan-Am Games.

    I don't recall ANY negative press about the loss.

    A year later in Athens, Clive's Olympians had the best showing for an American Olympic team ever.

    The point is, losing a couple of tuneups or evaluation games doesn't really accurately fortell that a team will do badly in competition just like beating Austria 3-0 didn't do Steve Sampson any good in France.

    Someone asked how Rongen's mark compared to other American youth national team coaches. Here are some records at varuous U-whatever levels.

    Last year with the 23s, Mooch Myernick was 1-2-2 against other U23 teams last year and 1-0-2 this year. For the mathematically impaired, that makes him 2-2-2 in U23 games.

    When he coached the 23s, including in the Olympics, Charles was 9-8-8 from 98 through the bronze medal game.

    Bruce Arena, who I'm pretty sure has gone on to better things, was 9-5-6 with the U23 team in 96.

    When he coached the U20 team, Sigi Schmid was 11-9-8 in 1998-99 against other U20 teams. This included a 3-0 loss to Portugal and a 4-0 loss to Mexico.

    In the next cycle, Wolfgang Sunholz was 7-4-5 in U20 internationals, with the worst loss being 3-1 to, ahem, Colombia.

    I don't have Jay Hoffman's record with the U20s for the 77-78s that competed in the 97 WYC in Malaysia so I don't know how Rongen compares. I do know that Rongen did better than the U20 coach who preceded Hoffman as whomever that was didn't even qualify for the 95 WYC, the last age-specific world championship we didn't qualify for.

    (BTW, if anyone has any info on that U20 team - 75-76s - like what players were used, who the coach was and what happend in the qualifiers, I'd love to know about it. I didn't follow the youth national teams that closely at the time.)

    Here are John Ellinger's records with the U17 team between 98-02.

    98 (82-83): 17-7-4
    99: (82-83): 13-1-5
    00: (84-85): 5-4-3
    01: (84-85): 9-3-1
    02: (86-87): 9-9-5
    5-YEAR TOTAL: 53-24-18

    His winning percentage is obviously much better than any of the U20 coaches, but he has the advantage of residency and being in a position to have the same players most of the games during a given two-year cycle, not to mention the fact that few countries in the world spend as much on their U17 teams as we do.

    Here are the records for the U18 team, which play FAR fewer games than the U17 and U20 teams, during the same five year period.

    Mitch Murray
    1998 (81a): 3-4-1
    1999 (81s): 2-1-1
    2 YEAR TOTAL: 5-5-1

    George Gelnovatch
    2000: (83s) 1-2-0
    2001 (83s): 2-0-1
    2002 (85s): 1-0-0
    3 YEAR TOTAL: 4-2-1

    (Murray also coached the 18s in 97 with the 79s but I don't know what his record was.)

    So, with the excpetion of John Ellinger, Rongen's winning percentage as U20 coach is either about the same or better than all the other recent youth national team coaches, including Bruce Arena when he coached age-specific teams.

    The reality is that youth national teams don't make much of an impact on the national radar. The 23s make some noise in the Olympics but ONLY if they do well and the 17s got a lot of pub this time around because of the Freddy phenomenon.

    But after making the semis of the U17 WC in 99, it wasn't like the today show was clamoring to get Landon and DaMarcus or Ellinger on the show. Save with some interviews with their hometown papers and Soccer America, it didn't really make much of a ripple here and that was the best showing by a US team at a WC ever. (Our men have never been beyond the semis at any level though we have been there once at the World Cup - 1930 - U20s in 99, Clive's Olympians in 2000 and the aforementioned U17 run in 99.)

    Yeah, it's nice when we do well and win but in the end, the biggest role of youth national teams is to develop senior national teamers and, in our country, professional players. They're basically glorified farm teams and coaches of farm teams or reserve teams aren't ultimately judged by wins and losses but on players they develop. I assure you ManU doesn't give a rat's ass if its youth clubs win any hardware but they better produce a Giggsy or O'Sheah or whomever or heads will roll.

    It will be great if Rongen does well with the 20s in the UAE but even if we win the whole thing, I don't think Bobby Convey's gonna be on Leo and Rico Clark won't be chatting with Katie, Matt and Al.

    The 7-0 loss was an abberation but it didn't cost the US Soccer community a damn thing in terms of stature or perception and even if it was the US who had spanked Colombia or Brazil a lot in a U20 friendly, it would have equally little impact.

    That, is what is a fact.
  20. davide

    davide Member

    Mar 1, 2001
    Here is some of the missing info.

    Hoffman (U-20 in 1997): (3-6-2) but that is incomplete because I know they played at least 15 international games and around 28 games total.

    2/19/1997 Mexico 1--4 Digi
    2/26/1997 LA Galaxy 1--0 S Armas
    3/20/1997 China 1--0 West
    3/27/1997 Man Utd YT 4--0 Petroski 3, Digi
    3/25/1997 Oldham 0--0
    3/29/1997 Tranmere 1--2 Wolff
    4/1/1997 Ireland ?
    4/15/1997 LA Galaxy 0--1
    5/8/1997 South Kor 1--2 Flores
    5/11/1997 South Kor ?
    5/25/1997 Czech Rep 0--1
    5/27/1997 Scotland 1--1 Wolff
    5/31/1997 Colombia 3--1 Petroski, Wolff (2)
    6/2/1997 Portugal 1--1 Victorine
    6/17/1997 China 1--0 West
    6/19/1997 Ireland 1--2 Flores (pk)
    6/22/1997 Ghana 0--1
    6/25/1997 Uruguay 0--3

    Hoffman (U-20 in 1996): 2-4-1 in international games, but likely incomplete.

    Feb-96 Mexico 1--5 Ch Brown
    Feb-96 Germany 0--1
    4/15/1996 Jamaica 4--1 Flores, Olsen, Victorine (2)
    4/17/1996 Martinique 2--0 Quill, Olsen
    4/19/1996 Honduras 0--0
    4/23/1996 Canada 0--2
    4/25/1996 Mexico 1--2 Abukusumo
    8/6/1996 USASA North 1--1
    8/7/1996 USASA East 1--2
    8/8/1996 USASA West 2--0 Digi, Fitchett
    8/10/1996 USASA East 0--0
    12/14/1996 College All-Stars 1--0 Digi

    Mitch Murray (U18 in 1997): 1-2-1 int'l

    Mar-97 Norway 3--2 Albright 2, Norkus
    Mar-97 Belguim 0--1
    Mar-97 Iceland 2--2 Morrison, DaSilva
    May-97 Sparta Prag 0--0
    May-97 Roda JC Ker 3--0 Hogenhout, Bardales, DaSilva
    May-97 France 0--1
    May-97 Lille 1--0 Bocanegra
    8/4/1997 US West 2--1
    8/6/1997 US East 1--1
    8/7/1997 US South 1--2
    8/9/1997 US Midwest 1--0

    Jay Miller (U17 in 1997): 2-9-4 int'l (overall 10-12-5)

    2/15/1997 Uruguay 0--1
    2/17/1997 Argentina 0--0
    4/8/1997 Borus Dort ?
    4/10/1997 Schalke YT ?
    4/12/1997 WestPhalen ?
    6/?/1997 Egypt Loss
    6/?/1997 Egypt Loss
    7/4/1997 Ghana 2--3 Twellman, Downing
    7/6/1997 Brazil 0--1
    7/10/1997 Mexico 1--2 Leonard
    7/12/1997 Mexico Loss
    7/21/1997 Chile 1--0 Twellman
    7/23/1997 Chile 0--0
    8/18/1997 Costa Rica Draw
    8/20/1997 Costa Rica 2--1 Twellman, Hollenbach
    Sep-97 Oman 0--4
    Sep-97 Brazil 0--3
    Sep-97 Austria 4--0 Rupsis, Twellman 2, Totten

    Jay Miller (U-17 in 1996): 5-4-3

    12/27/1995 Chivas ?
    12/29/1995 Tecos ?
    12/31/1995 Atlas ?
    1/16/1997 Chile Loss
    1/18/1996 Argentina 1--2
    1/20/1996 Uruguay 2--1 Purcell, Totten
    3/18/1996 Jamaica 2--2 Duval (2)
    3/20/1996 Mexico 2--1 Hollenbach, Gutierrez
    3/22/1996 Region III 2--0 Duval, Monsibais

    8/18/1996 Bermuda 5--0 Gutierrez, Purcell, Rupsis, Yamuichi, Boutieller
    8/20/1996 Domin Rep 3--0 Castellanos (2), Purcell
    8/22/1996 Costa Rica 2--3 Purcell, Rupsis
    8/25/1996 Mexico 1--3 Castellanos
    8/29/1996 Canada 2--0 Purcell, Gutierrez
    8/31/1996 Costa Rica 1--1 Monsibais
    10/19/1996 Mexico 2--2 Wilson, Monsibais

    The 1994 U-20 team was coached by John Kowalski.

    The U-20s finished second in a group consisting of T&T, Guyana, and El Salvador. The entire U-20 tournament was held in Honduras. IIRC, the group winners and one (?) second place team advanced to a final group.

    We ripped Guyana 4-1 in the opener. But, El Salvador beat us 3-1 in the second game. We needed at least 7 goals against T&T to guarantee advancement into the final round, but we only managed a 4-0 win and thus were sent packing.

    Afterwards, Kowalski made a bunch of excuses that we didn't have any finishers and that all of the players were central midfielders ...

    I believe they showed a picture of this team at halftime of a Nats telecast earlier this year when they were doing a feature on Clint Mathis.

    Players that I know were in Honduras:
    Clint Mathis
    Carey Talley
    Steve Patterson
    Jason Boyce
    Audriy Shapowal
    Wade Barrett
    Aaron Cunningham (played for some English team)
    Jovan Kirovski
    Richie Kotschau
    Leo Cullen
    Chris Klein

    Others that might have been on the roster, but unconfirmed:
    Daniel Hernandez
    Jody DeBruin
    Grant Naylor-GK
    Judah Cooks
    Billy Walsh
    Scott Vermillion
    another GK

    If anyone has any more info, please reply.
  21. beineke

    beineke New Member

    Sep 13, 2000
    The first match was 0-0; according to La Nacion, the match dates were 8/15 and 8/17.
  22. whip

    whip Member

    Aug 5, 2000
    Re: Re: Re: What about the negative press???

    Perhap be a foreigner have some advantages. Guys, there are people watching every USA performance, it is a cultural thing, many foreing use to brag about how USA was whoop here and there, until KOREA 2002. The role have reverse it have been a turning point... is not the same... people do not sit easy anymore to see their favorite ass whoop on any tournament, many people use to said: I just sit here to see by how many goals USA is going to receibe today" that was the coment on the morning of the game USA/portugal ...two hours later the world have change for millions of people, Americans are not easy to spank anymore, they are fighting back and they are good, what a feeling !!!
  23. GersMan

    GersMan Member

    May 11, 2000
    Re: Re: Re: Re: What about the negative press???

    to quote the burnout draft dodger in Forrest Gump: "man, you said it all."

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