Quality of Women's World Cup Teams, not many teams are very good are they?

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by Nick79, Jun 12, 2019.

  1. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    On the parity thing, before the WC, I was saying there were prolly 4 teams capable of winning: U.S., France, Germany, England.

    And, that there were a bunch of teams capable of beating any of those teams on their day: Australia, Sweden, Netherlands, Brazil, Japan, Canada.

    Now, obviously, you'd add Italy to that list.
    And, the U.S. looks like they would play anyone, except maybe France, off the field.

    But, the U.S. hasn't played anyone. We'll see if we're as good as we look.

    Back to the point, the number of competitive teams has exploded this go-round. It's too bad that this tournament will probably be remembered for the disparity (due to including so many teams), than the parity. To me, this tournament represents a sea change for women's soccer. A revolution. I'm super excited for the knock out rounds.

    Going into it, there were, by my reckoning, 10 teams at the top of the pool - where on any given day, one could knock the other off.

    Now, there are 11, including Italy. Maybe the U.S. is a singularity, the greatest team of all time, and they stand above the pack. Maybe not. But, either way, the growth of the game over the last 4 years is astounding.
  2. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    #52 Cliveworshipper, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019

    The USA did not quality in 1938, 1954, 1958, 1962, 1966, 1970, 1974, 1982, 1986, and 2018.

    They only qualified in 1994 because the host country gets an automatic slot.

    Of the cups they did enter, they won ZERO matches in 1934, 1990, 1998, and 2006- making them about on par with Thailand.

    And they only actually won a single match in 1950,1994, 2010, and 2014.

    The first WC was by invitation, not qualification, and the USA was one of only 13 teams in the World to accept.
    As it turns out, it was the best USA finish ever in a World Cup (3rd). The next best finish was a computed 8th place in 2002.

    So of the cups where the USA had to go through a qualification process, the USA has seen just half.

    I invite you to compare that to the Women’s Record.
    McSkillz and Lloyd Heilbrunn repped this.
  3. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    :ROFLMAO: You're going back to 1986 to make it "many." If the teams that qualified in '90 and '98 qualified, I think it's safe to assume the '94 would have.

    Before 2018, the MNT had one of the top 3 or 4 consecutive appearance streaks in the world. Come on Clive, make me laugh some more.

    "Compare that with the women's record" Ok, for the period of time that there has been a WWC, the women have qualified for exactly one more WC. This one.

    This is what I tooootally don't get. The maroons that think that to be a fan of the WNT, you have to crap on the MNT.
    Auriaprottu and ntxsage repped this.
  4. Nick79

    Nick79 Member

    May 4, 2015
    Olympiakos Piraeus
    This was a few years ago and she was much younger. still doesn't change the fact that USA is ONLY good because there is little competition, and other countries don't care about women's soccer. Also, are you sure all those teams have girls youth programs.
  5. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    Funny, I’m not the one who wanted to compare in the first place. I just accepted the comparison. the thing I don’t get is the maroons who think there is really a comparison to be made.

    It’s our record. Be in denial if you want,

    Per your request, here is the comparison year by year, taking the closest men’s and Women’s cups.

    1990 men group stage. 23rd place ( 0 wins)
    1991 women champions

    1994 men round of 16 23rd place
    1995 women semifinal won third place match

    1998 men groups stage 32nd place (dead last 0 wins)
    1999 women champions.

    2002 men quarterfinals. 8th place
    2003 women won 3rd place match

    2006 men group stage 25th place ( 0 wins)
    2007 women won 3rd place matcn

    2010 men round of 16 12th place
    2011 women runner up lost shootout in final

    2014 men round of 16 15th place
    2015 women champions.

    2018 men did not qualify
    2019 women TBD

    Of the 7 cups, the women have been to the final 4 times and won 3.
  6. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    #56 Cliveworshipper, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
    UEFA mandates that first division teams have Youth programs.

    The lack of progress largely the fault of Greek federation. They not only don’t care, they were actively hostile towards women’s soccer.

    When Athens hosted the Olympics, the coaches put together a team of players of Greek heritage and players from around the world , including from the USA. It was actually a decent team, winning several matches from UEFA teams.

    A couple weeks before the Olympics, the Greek Olympic committee or the federation decided all the players had to be native born and living in the country, something no other team does. Apparently it was more important than actually acquitting themselves and being competitive. It was as like Portugal without Eusebio, or Germany and France without their half dozen foreign born players. A couple of those players played for Greece after being told they would be doing a great thing to promote women’s football in Greece. What they got was heartbreak and the lost opportunity to ever play for their birth country.
    Greece didn’t score a point.

    That decision set Greece back a decade.
    MiLLeNNiuM repped this.
  7. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    Against the same level of competition.

    Also, I didn't ask you anything. I stated "What are you talking about?" as a rhetorical question in reply to your comment about the Men's failure to qualify. The Men have one of the best records of qualifying for the WC in the world over the past 30 years.
  8. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006

    Whatever you are smokin’, you should market that.

    The USA doesn’t even have the best record in CONCACAF, that would be Mexico, who has qualified for every cup in that span without benefit of automatic qualification.

    Six countries have made every cup.

    And Concacaf rivals Océana a as one of the least competitive confederations. We let TRINIDAD knock us out. Jeez.

    Just qualifying isn’t the whole picture. I see you shy away from USA men’s record, which is pretty dismal by any standard.

    The USA men have a total of eight (8, ocho, huit) victories in the 88 year history of the World Cup.

    That’s a grand total of 8 wins, 6 ties, and 19 losses.

    Subtracting two wins in the first cup and beating England in 1950, that’s 5 wins in your arbitrary span, or less than one win per cup.average in the last 30 years.

    The miracle of that span is we made the quarterfinals once on the basis of two wins.
  9. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, in my world a number of invitees that results in large number of noncompetitive teams at a World Cup is bad.

    That number seems to be 24 for the women. There are teams here that don't belong including Thailand.

    I'm betting that number will be 48 for the men. Shoot, based upon Panama last summer, it might even be 32 for the men.
  10. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And even though we were all very happy when they qualified in 1990, they only did so because Mexico got disqualified, if I recall correctly.
  11. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You left out a couple. Norway being the most obvious. China are still pretty decent. Spain are much improved.

    There is certainly an issue at the Federation level with the women's program not getting adequate resorces & support: training, coaching, & matches.

    I think a baker's dozen. More coming with support: Chile, Argentina, Mexico, Nigeria, South Korea, Jamaica, etc.
  12. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    I left out Norway. And, that would be a whole different story if their top player were here. Still, their odds against the top 4 would be really long. Longer than those I listed.

    I think China kind of sucks right now. I wouldn't give them a chance in hell against the top 4.

    Spain plays pretty, but no one on that team could finish a song.

    The rest seem to be getting better for the most part. But, I think the next Italy, or the next couple of Italy's could come from anywhere. I don't think any of the rest of the ones you named have a particularly better chance than ROW to be the next team to step up into 2nd tier. In fact, you left out Denmark. I'd put their chances above anyone on your list that I've labeled "the rest."

    But, the point is, the Women's world is wayyyyyy more competitive than it was 4 years ago. Way.
  13. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    Lol, you're going back 30 years to diss the men.

    And, thank goodness Mex was out. Otherwise we wouldn't have hosted the WC in 94 and the Fed would have had zeeeeero dollars to support any teams, men's, women's, beach, futsal, .... anything.
  14. Lloyd Heilbrunn

    Lloyd Heilbrunn Member+

    Feb 11, 2002
    Jupiter, Fl.
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I support the men too. And I didn't initiate the discussion about history of qualifications. But there's no way that '90 should be mentioned without the asterisk.
  15. hotjam2

    hotjam2 Member+

    Nov 23, 2012
    Real Madrid
    well I belong to several facebook soccer slubs, and it's not all that. Interests has picked up at this forum, just not from your Euro side. Dunno if there's a massive Italian language forum on woso, all I can tell is that despite bordering France, both Itlalian games were played to half empty stadiums

    absolutely true,. But interesting fact; when Jurgen Klinsman immediately attacked the 'play for college' system for attracting too many players from the middle/upper class, instead of the poor, who have more of a hunger to make it big in pro soccer(and this is why he kpet searching for GI babies)
    Well this theory actual works for American woso, since over there if a female makes into a so called pro club, their salaries often an incredible 50 to 100 times less than their male counterparts.

    on the personal side, my daughter plays college ball, talking to her talk coach, he says every year, he gets hundreds of foreign applicants, desperate to come to play & learn in the US. A lot of the playere he tried to pick can't even make it through the Amrrcian consulate aptitude/language tests, thus their visa's are deniedthis could be why 4 of the top 6 FIFA ranked NT's are from English speaking countries,
    I've also talked to some of the foreign players, like one from England, who had to pay a firm, over $1700 just to make videos of her playing & send out to colleges to get recruited. And even though she got a full ride(as foreingers often mature more technically through pro club training than our mom & pop select system). but she even partly gave that up & bugged her parents for more money so she can live off campus. There's another player from Dubai who obviously not on a scholarship, and accually paid for a couple of team mates air fare to go back & visit Dubai!
    So what I'm getting at is a lot of the female players from around the world are just like Americans; their not looking to make a fortune(as an pro athlete), but just trying to get an education while enjoying the perks of the American lifestyle. Guess this means keg paties, hazing, spring breaks/or like the last time I visited Nashville's honky tonk row; invaded by foreign tourists rather than American ones
  16. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    By that standard, there is no way that any women's qualification should be mentioned without an asterisk. We had Jamaica as a cushion this time around? We would have had to have been worse than some team that is worse than Jamaica not to qualify? If we're throwing asterisks around, every U.S. Women's qualification gets one.
  17. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    Not sure what that has to do with soccer, but ya, that's another benefit of Title IX. Getting women from other countries in to experience life in the good ol' USA, for better or worse.

    Re: the foreign tourists, ya, I live in coastal So Cal, and there seem to be more foreign tourists than ever. Is the dollar low? Either way, welcome foreigners! It continues to surprise me that anyone from another country would want to come visit the U.S., unless it was nature tourism. But, hey, come on over! Have a hot dog, a burger, a breakfast burrito, Chicago style pizza, a fortune cookie, sample the different styles of BBQ, a shrimp po' boy, a Mississippi hot tamale, some American craft beer.
  18. Cliveworshipper

    Cliveworshipper Member+

    Dec 3, 2006
    The irony of this claim, of course, is that most German players aren’t from the the poor or lower classes, but were and are proper middle class or rich.

    Klinnsmann himself was firmly ensconced in the middle class. His father owned a bakery and Konditorei ( pastry shop)

    RalleeMonkey repped this.
  19. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Care to revisit your takes on Norway & Spain? China is today.

    I think their best player flaking out galvanized Norway. They have certainly looked better than England. I'd rate them as favorites vs England. That would put them in the semis.

    Spain owns, I believe, every youth title out there (Euro or World, oops, 2nd at u-20s). They outplayed us in the second half yesterday.

    Revisiting the original question, I will go 14. All of the 16s from this WC sans Nigeria & Cameroon, who were not awful.

    For me:
    A. Title Winners = 4.

    1. USA: In QFs
    WC: 3 1st, 1 2nd, 3 SF
    OLY: 4 1st, 1 2nd

    2. Germany: In QFs
    WC: 2 1st, 1 2nd, 2 SF
    OLY: 1 1st, 3 SF

    3. Norway: In QFs
    WC: 1 1st, 1 2nd, 2 SF
    OLY: 1 1st, 1 SF

    4. Japan: In 16s
    WC: 1 1st, 1 2nd,
    OLY: 1 2nd, 1 SF

    Japan & Norway a tad down right now. But still competitive. Norway very much so. Japan likely with an eye on 2020 OLY hosts. USA & GER the current WC/OLY champs.

    B. Bridesmaids = 3.

    5. Brazil: Out at 16s in aet.
    WC: 1 2nd, 1 SF
    OLY: 2 2nd, 3 SF

    6. Sweden: In QFs.
    WC: 1 2nd, 2 SF
    OLY: 1 2nd, 1 SF

    7. China: In 16s.
    WC: 1 2nd, 1 SF
    OLY: 1 2nd

    Every Winner & Runner up at the WWC (7 tournaments) and Olympics (6) have come from these 7 teams. Moreover, evey SF appearance in those tournaments come from those 7 save for a handful from 3 other nations.

    With Marta, Christiane, and Formiga close to the end, Brazil are not what they were, but still gave France quite a battle. The Swedes got to the Final in the last OLY, beating the US on the way, and are in the QFs. China dipped after Sun Wen hung them up, but are in the 16s now.

    C. SF Good = 3.

    8. Canada. Out at 16s.
    WC: 1 SF
    OLY: 2 SF (last 2)

    9. France. In QFs.
    WC: 1 SF
    OLY: 1 SF

    10. England. In QFs.
    WC: 1 SF (last one)

    Canada have knocked on the door for a while now. 2 3rds at the last two OLY but a disappointing loss here, with Sinclair near the end. France & England were the first of the Euro men's powers (sans Germany) to get it into gear. All of there SFs have come in the last two WC/OLY.

    4. Euro Men's Powers Stepping up = 3.

    11. Netherlands. In 16s.

    The reigning Euro champs are the first non- Germany (8)/Norway (2)/Sweden (1) team to win the Euros since it became an official tourney for women in 1984.

    12. Italy. In 16s.

    One of two countries (Denmark) to win unofficial women's tournaments. Italy in 1969. Danes in 1979.

    13. Spain. Out at 16s to USA.

    2 time reigning world u-19 champs & u-20 runners up.

    14. Australia. Out at 16s.

    Never gotten paat the QFs at a big tourney but a frequently at that stage.

    Those 14, who all made the 16s at this WC, would all rate as teams that can beat a top dog on their day. Though some (China) just barely.

    Beyond those? Europe has some strong teams: Denmark & Austria foremost. Nigeria & Cameroon head an improving African contingent. Chile & Argentina in South America. South Korea in Asia.

    Top teams used to get easy QF matches. But now tough 16s are the rule.

    Won't be long until there are 32 (Europe needs more teams in).
  20. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    You're post is too long for me to read right now (I own my own business). But, I'll respond to the top. Ya, I underestimated Norway. I also think the assertion that they're better w/o the world's best player is comical. If you don't think they'd add her to the roster in a heartbeat, you're crazy.

    I'll respond by asking you to reevaluate completely disregarding Denmark, when the Olympic tournament comes around.

    I was dead on wrt Spain. They gave us a hell of a match, but could only score when we gift wrapped a goal for them.

    I think we are pretty much in precise agreement, but quibbling over the details. The women's game has improved vastly.

    And, ya, that Norway team is fun to watch & Cameroon made England look terrible.

    I had England winning the Cup, before it started. But, that's not looking likely now. I'd put my money on Germany, now.

    Anyway, the world is certainly improving in women's soccer. There is way more (imo) parity at the top level, than in the men's game - leading to way more matches that are enjoyable to watch in the WWC.


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