promotion and relegation*

Why would the MLS owners voluntarily implement a system that will lose them hundreds of millions of dollars? Most if not ALL of the current owners would sell their franchise before agreeing to financial suicide.

 

You know I used to accuse people that were for pro/rel as being euroNOBS but now the more I think about it the more I am for it. In fact we should start right here on big soccer. We should have promotion and religation for posters. Sure we would lose some perenial bottom feeders like Whip and whitestar worrior but just think of all the newly promoted euronobs we could pick on. Also it would allow the cream of the crop the Stan's of big soccer to rise to the top were they can rightly take their place as the top four posters. This is the best idea to come to American shores since pizza.

So I ask you who is with me? Who will follow me into this brave new big soccer?

 

uh... you eurosnobbery ass, I guess you are only familiar with Euro football besides MLS.

pro/rel is not euro thing, it's all over the world thing in football.

 

You answered your own question even with bold face.

hence I said "MLS owners group most likely not going to voluntarily implement pro/rel"

 

Currently no big US televisoin network would shell out big bucks to a D1 US-Canada soccer league with or without pro/rel.

If MLS become one of the biggest leagues leveling EPL or LaLiga, big US television netwrok would shell out big bucks even with pro/rel.

 

I've already relegated DCU1996 to my ignore list. Does that count? And let me tell you, it makes these threads far more readable.

 

My point was no MLS owner would agree to pro/rel even at gunpoint. With pro/rel their $35m+ franchise value would be effectively zero.

 

How is MLS going to become a big league without any owners?

 

Not without any certainties that they might lose any major markets to relegation they won't. One of the main reasons why MLS wanted Philadelphia in a big way was because they were a top five U.S. television market. The more big market television cities MLS has under its belt, the better position they'll be in down the road in negotiating a big television deal once the league grows and improves their brand.

 

Even in a future hypothetical world where ESPN would gladly accept pro/rel, it is not the point. DCU1996 points out fantasy situations where FIFA just somehow forces the league to change its rules, there is no proof that will ever happen, but it doesn't point out how impossible that would be.

we are one big company...we are one big 'single entity'. Pro/Rel of itself would be like Man United choosing to relegate itself. For instance if Man U doesn't get 75 points this year it chooses to drop their sponsor and take a less profitable one. It would be madness, no business ANYWHERE would choose to add risk and choose to decrease profits. It is just silly, it is not an american thing, once you think about MLS as 1 company you realize that it is just impossible.

But it is a larger point that posters don't get...how does this work structurally (like what do you do with the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of legal binding contracts and sponsorships and how do you get all owners on board) and MOST importantly that no one ever mentions, is that beyond it now looking exactly like systems around the world, how does this make more money? How is MLS in a better place? How is the league more secure? It almost certainly makes ownership groups, sponsors, and city/state gov'ts with stadium developments to be less certain of investments not more.

There are simple questions that almost no advocate of pro/rel can even answer. How do you make it work?

 

in any business or investment, there are risks.

If you want no risk, no busines.

 

Wait really? You mean to tell me that countries other than europe have pro/rel? Oh go on... surely you jest. Next you will tell me things like Russia plays a schedule just like ours because of inclement weather. Or not every league has a straight single table set up. Some even have playoff just like MLS. How silly must those leagues feel? Your stupidity never stops amazing me.

Also a word about pro/rel. If we had major tv contracts why would owners suddenly agree to stop taking that money if they got sent down at the end of the year? oh the parachute payment...yeah because that might let them hold on to the team just long enough to not go out of business... Like it or not Americans do not care about minor leagues in any sport. Sure there are some exceptions but they are few and far between. Also disregarding what is going on right now where are they going to get relegated to? USL/NASL has history of the average team lasting about 3 years. most also have "stadiums" that have an average of capacity of 4000 people.

And I am not even going to go into the legal ramifications of single entity contracts and their overall effect on pro/rel as your little head might explode.

 

yes, the league must battle for fans interest against some of the biggest sports leagues in the world in a country that has not had a financially successful soccer league in a century. Their risk is HUGE and it comes from outside sources, why would they vote to add risk INSIDE.

Not once have you even attempted to describe a way for it to work. You have not once showed how this system would be more stable and help the sport in this country financially. We have seen leagues come and go for 100 years in this country, we finally have a league with success and you want a radical change...but can not describe how this change will work or how it will make the league stronger just that you personally would like to see it.

The league makes money from SUM, this is owned by all the owners of the league. the hundreds of millions of dollars worth of sponsorship and media contracts are signed to this company this company is the reason why people are willing to pay big franchise fees just to play. This is a legal binding corporation with stock holders, you are advocating a system where teams are going to leave...but what happens to their stock in the company? What happens to the compensation they would legally demand if they were let go, how do new organizations get a piece of that company. If you are letting people in and out of this corporation....HOW DOES IT WORK. It is very simple. You want to point out vague quotemining examples of FIFA referring to other leagues that have nothing to do with MLS.

It is very simple, explain what you want, how we do it, and why it is good for the league. The reason why you can't explain how to do it or even if it is a good thing financially may be a good indication that you don't know enough about it. Simply pointing to other systems that are completely different than ours shows how unaware you are with the league's structure.

 

I would actually argue that the proponents of pro/rel are the plastic/poser fans. They are the ones that can't understand how our league and American system works, and why, at best, you'll have a modified pro/rel like I posted on the last page where all team are eligible for MLS Cup, but pro/rel exists for regular season scheduling and playoff seeding/entries.

 

what about the concept that someone posted awhile back that NASL buys the 20th expansion slot. The last team in MLS has relegation playoff so they have two games to prove they are a quality side to play in MLS, then if that team loses they are relegated to NASL for a year and vice-versa, but the catch what would happen if that NASL team wins the MLS cup...that's why we will never see pro/rel.

 

lol let's not pretend like NASL or USL is a stable entity. With the CBA still having troubles I wouldn't consider MLS very stable either.

Promotion and Relegation is for stable leagues. The only sport in US and Canada in any position to implement promotion and relegation at this point would be baseball...because they have an extensive farm system. But most teams in baseball wouldn't want to sacrifice their call up period at the end of the season when they can expand their roster from 20 something to 40ish players.

 

I actually started that thread. My point was that people need to start looking at the MLS as what it is...one big company that sells franchises. You must buy in. There had long been this wishful thinking than MLS would just buy USL and have pro/rel. What my point was is that we are forgetting that the company is not going to buy anything you must buy into THEM.

If we are ever going to see a 2nd division where those teams could play into the 1st division we must first come to the conclusion that there is no possible way that any MLS franchise could ever be regulated. It would be a financial and legal nightmare. It can't happen. So instead of just screaming for something that is impossible, why don't people who want to see it actually start supporting a concept that is at least in theory possible.

I did not mean to imply that this USL or NASL group had to be the ones to buy in. What I meant was if MLS wanted to expand greatly for media reasons and test markets they might at one point instead of looking for one big investor of 40M maybe find 10 investors at 4M each. Those clubs would play and the winner gets to come up and play as the #20 team and at the end of the season play the MLS2 (the other 9 clubs playing each other) to see who gets to go the next year. The 1-19 clubs who bought in are NEVER in danger. MLS gets pro/rel and keeps the franchise/single entity system, they get to keep their franchise market price, they get to expand to more markets, and test markets. If once city takes off, the small time owner might find some big investors (like Seattle Sounders) and just go and buy a full slot.

I also agree this will probably never happen, but if we as fans want to support or at least hope for a system with pro/rel lets first understand how MLS works and then support a system change that doesn't require adding risk and maybe even makes the game and league better. Not just demand huge changes and have no idea how to make it work or even if it would help the league or not just because it is done someplace else.

 

Yeah, that's the reason. Not the whole issue with absorbing and releasing a team from the single-entity concept, TV contracts, sponsorship contracts, stadiums, expansion fees, or anything like that. Its clearly because the MLS Board of Governors is worried a former USL team might win it all. That's why teams like Seattle, Portland, Vancouver, and Montreal haven't been considered for expansion. Oh, wait a second...

(BTW, if these NASL teams, which are just former USL teams, are so good that they're a threat to MLS, why has only one of them won the U.S. Open Cup in 14 years?)

 

What are you talking about, the US Open Cup victory is proof they can compete

 

About the only way I see pro/rel working in the current structure is for MLS itself to be split into a first division league and a second division league and have pro/rel between those divisions only. That way all the teams are a member of SUM and getting the revenue from that, perhaps with the first division getting a bigger cut than second division. Whenever someone buys into the league they start out as a second division team. Other than that, pro/rel works the same way, except for when the lower division expands then an extra team is promoted.

 

What if FIFA says pro/rel or ban from FIFA.

Your estimation is way off. $35m+ franchise value woulld be zero, only if you assume D2 value is $0, and all of the 20+ teams in MLS get relegated at the same time.

If there are fans, demands, market, then there would be business and owners.

 

Wow, let me know of a business without risks, I would like to invest all of my money and loans I can get.

 

My guess will be MLS' is going to go with rewarding good maket, and allow them more flexibility like adding more DPs, and luxury tax type cap, etc...

Then, the chance of good/big markets getting relegated would be somewhat reduced.

Also, with pro/rel MLS footprint in the nation would be much larger which is great for TV market.

They need to do business with those assumed risks and benefits.

 

My reference to FIFA and other country was about FIFA's actual strong pressure for pro/rel and some country even promised to implement it hoping it would increase chance to host World Cup. Who know what FIFA would do to US in the long run.

Also, if fans view the league as a plasict league whith out no real competion,then it would have hard time growing beyond certain points. Just like MLS is struggling right not in the global market. Pro/rel would expand MLS' footprint nations wide.

You keep asking how, maybe buying out whole D2 would be one way just to entertain you.