promotion and relegation*

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by MetroZebra, Jul 27, 2002.

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  1. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, I know. Thus the need for reform - at least for soccer. In this game, there is more than enough evidence out there to suggest that our domestic sports model pretty much 100% sucks, and pretty much always fails.
     
  2. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thank god for ignore lists. Based on the post count, it looks like Dumbass has really been putting up a wall of screed. He might be an idiot, but you kind of have to admire his dedication.
     
  3. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    Just working for a world where Drew Carey, Paul Allen and Joe Roth decide how good Sounders can be, not a bunch of former NFL officials backed up by the league controls and risk abatements of the single entity.
     
  4. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How do I keep coming off your ignore list anyway? You must be running Windows....
     
  5. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yup. Still can't see what your posting. Awesome.
     
  6. Ganapper

    Ganapper Member

    Apr 5, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You keep saying this like the Sounders were forced by MLS to not open their entire stadium. Yet you ignore that they expanded stadium capacity twice now. To meet the demands of the market. You also ignore that the reason you hate the system is also the same reason why owners would be slobbering over more tickets for the sounders. Closed entity revenue sharing does not function in a way to suppress profits for other teams. Don't be completely contradictory its annoying.

    Oh, and just to keep up with you;NFL officials with a trillion dollar track record.
     
  7. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let me just state some facts before I move on.

    soccerreform does not like to worry about the failed open clubs in europe, or the huge debts on superclubs, nor does he like it when you point out the failure of open leagues in india or china. Because we have no connection to those nations obviously...well lets see.

    The GDP argument (we can see that countries with money do not mean that open leagues can not fail, and many of the top economies have leagues without pro/rel)
    #1 US
    #3 China
    #11 Canada
    #12 India
    #14 Australia

    The Population Argument (note how much bigger these nations are than the big euro league nations UK- 22, Spain - 27, and Italy - 23. The top leagues which also have some of the biggest economies have had failed leagues)
    #1 China
    #2 India
    #3 US

    Land Area (note many of the biggest land mass countries have failed leagues and no pro-rel. The biggest euro league countries are #50-spain #71-Italy and #79 UK)
    #2 Canada
    #3 China
    #4 US
    #6 Australia
    #7 India


    The Trillion Dollar Track Record
    - note how much athletes are making in 'closed/franchise' leagues
    http://www.businesspundit.com/25-biggest-and-most-expensive-sports-contracts-ever-signed/
    http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/17/top-earning-athletes-business-sports-top-earning-athletes.html

    - note the high value of teams in franchise/closed leagues (7 out of top 10 are from franchise/closed leagues and 3 out of 10 are from open and the 3 soccer clubs are unaffected by pro/rel)
    http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/13/nfl-cowboys-yankees-biz-media-cx_tvr_0113values_slide_2.html

    - note how even average NFL clubs dwarf non superclubs in EPL/La Liga
    http://espn.go.com/sportsbusiness/s/forbes.html

    - note how the biggest soccer league in the world (open) draws about 1/10th of the media dollars that the biggest football league in the world (closed) draws here in the US giving a glimpse into the true market value of the highest quality soccer in this country.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jun/22/setanta-espn-premier-league-tv
    http://www.thefreelibrary.com/DISNEY,+NFL+TV+DEAL:+$9.2+BILLION.(SPORTS)-a083807763


    So what do we learn here.
    1. economically/population/land mass we are more similar to India and china than we are to european nations. India and China has both had failed open leagues

    2. The 3 major sports in the US has only around 90 teams all in closed/franchise systems. These are some of the most successful global teams out performing thousands of teams in open/non franchise systems. This leads us to understand that a club operating in a closed system can be as profitable or more profitable than one operating in an open system.

    3. The US media/sponsorships value the top soccer leagues in the world as only a fraction as valuable as the top american football league.

    4. The owners of closed/franchise teams often make more and have more valuable teams than those in open/non franchise teams.

    5. players in closed/franchise teams often make more and have more valuable contracts than those in open/non franchise teams


    I love international soccer and MLS, I am not a NFL/MLB/NBA fan but I do live in reality. I don't believe in quick fixes, and I do believe that the system we have in place has be incredibly successful in various sports. I do believe our franchise values are up 400% in 5 years. We are on the right track but it will be a very long track. If you don't like it get off and support another league either in the US or around the world. I am all for making this league better, but we have to at some point acknowledge reality.
     
  8. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In other words you don't have an answer because he's right and your wrong. Once again proving you're nothing but a con artist.
     
  9. KCbus

    KCbus Moderator
    Staff Member

    United States
    Nov 26, 2000
    Reynoldsburg, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    (soccerreform.us repeatedly bangs head into monitor)
     
  10. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Still waiting for that one example of any other team that's shut down season tickets, three months out from season, with half the stadium open. I think I even left the question open to examples dating from as early as 567 BC.

    NFL marketing experts define their market as closed as their league. Therefore, when a Sounders fan buys a ticket, it might be coming out of the Seahawks hide.

    I think you're feeling pretty comfortable acknowledging that MLS limits performance levels of every club. If so, would it be such a huge conspiracy theory that they limit attendance?
     
  11. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You watch too much Lost.
     
  12. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You've done some good research here. I'd ask you to cite PRC and Indian "failures", but I have a better argument than that:

    The US has a richer pro sports legacy, and a much richer soccer legacy, than either.

    Pop Quiz:

    World record holder for goals scored in a top flight season:

    A. Christiano Ronaldo of Portugal - for ManU in 2008
    B. Archie Stark of the United States - for Bethlehem Steel FC in 1925
    C. Ferenc Puskas of Hungary - for Real Madrid in 1955

    First independent nation in the Western Hemisphere north of Argentina to gain admission to FIFA.

    A. Brazil
    B. Mexico
    C. USA

    extra credit:

    Most World Cup Finals appearances:

    A. USA
    B. India
    C. China

    Except in soccer.

    This is a new argument! But one for which I have a response...
    US media, until recently, did not have the technology, or the model, to integrate traditional advertising strategies with the sport. With the advent of more innovative on screen ads that can be layered over live broadcast - bled from web ad development - this is beginning to change.

    Again, with the notable exception of soccer.

    *except for soccer

    Now to deflate the quick fix argument:

    three year transition
    +
    announcement of the beginning of the transition, say, two to four years out
    +
    time enough to build a supporter list large enough to lend courage to potential owners and USSF to that our club game can thrive off of the single entity feeding tube - say two to four years
    =
    a total transition time of seven to eleven years.

    versus.

    Waiting for MLS to make enough money in their single entity to divest back into the fully independent clubs and promotion/relegation model in which the sport has thrived in every large, developed soccer nation with a history as rich as ours.

    Some in this thread have put that date into the twenty second century.

    Garber puts it thirty years out - kinda like George Bush saying we're gonna land on Mars - when he's 97.

    Whether you agree with pro/rel or not - you have to acknowledge that building grassroots approach, supporter by supporter, has a better chance of effecting change than sitting around and waiting for MLS to make enough money to generously grant some half assed form of it to us.
     
  13. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If franchise values are up 400%, it makes me feel better for owners who, too scared of the free market, pro/rel, open league model - could sell to owners with the cajones for the new system - without taking a bath.
     
  14. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is about quality of play in a sport in which international competition is relished, not avoided. Open pyramids allow clubs to build for this competition, our domestic closed league model was never designed for it.

    Which brings us back to the point:

    If you're building a league in which enforced parity comes before performance, why are you using a Div one entitlement in a pyramid designed to stretch the limits of club performance, to do it?
     
  15. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    A Fulham fan that can't acknowledge the drama of promotion and relegation. How sad indeed. You must really think that MLS is the only thing saving us from a country devoid of club soccer.
     
  16. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Nov 18, 2008
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nobody is denying that there's drama in promotion and relegation. Jesus christ, you have missed every single point everyone else in this thread has made.
     
  17. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Your logic is baffling. When presented with incredible amounts of evidence showing trillion dollar AMERICAN track records for closed/franchise leagues you disprove it all in your mind by pulling a stat out of a US soccer history book. And what does this mean? Oh, these other countries with big economies who have not had open leagues or open leagues that did not take off don't have our soccer history...:rolleyes:


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcutta_Football_League
    http://www.rsssf.com/tablesc/chinahist.html
    http://www.canadiansoccerhistory.com/canadanational/dcfa1.htm
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victorian_Premier_League


    the business model has succeeded in various sports, sports played only in the US and sports played around the world. Your argument says that if we change business models than we will prosper. But in THIS country, our model has produced more successful businesses than your model. These are facts. You can turn a blind eye to every struggling 'open' club and quote all of the facts from US soccer circa 1915, but the truth is that in this country professional soccer is a growing sport. Even the biggest leagues in the world draw peanuts in comparison to the NFL. We need to grow this league and the soccer economy. I am all for good ideas, but you don't have an idea you have a quick fix fantasy that focuses on the sporting landscape of the early 1900s. We need to deal in reality.
     
  18. Ganapper

    Ganapper Member

    Apr 5, 2009
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm still waiting for evidence that Sounders would have filled the stadium as you seem to think is the case.

    I'm still waiting for you to refute the simple economics of supply and demand. Seattle had demand, and by keeping things small the first year, created more.

    Wanna know how I know that? I live on the east side in Washington State. The people that are casual fans will say "It would be nice to go watch a game" but when there is a saturated ticket market they rarely go. Because the attitude is "I can always go next weekend." With a limitation on tickets, the casual fans plan on weekends and buy their tickets MONTHS in advance.

    I'm sorry, but the fact of the matter is, the Sounders did not have the demand to expand much until after they sold out and were successful ON THE FIELD. If the stadium had been completely open, it would have looked like a half empty stadium and not gathered as much buzz. Its called smart marketing, you should try figuring out how to do that sometime, you might gather more support.
     
  19. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You have again and again failed to acknowledge the economic realities of the sport in this country.

    For your system to work, 160 teams all independent you would need 100+ new owners and 100+ new sponsors and 100+ new cities and media willing to embrace soccer on whatever level.

    Were you just napping when the NASL failed and we went a whole decade without a real 1st division? The pyramid essentially didn't exist on the pro side, you had HS/college soccer a national team and a bunch of semi-pro clubs operating at a loss ready to go bankrupt. Where were the investors? We according to you was still such a huge soccer nation. Still the #2 Fifa member north of Argentina (for whatever that means) and had lots of kids playing the game. The pyramid was plenty open for anyone. No cost of entry. Totally free to start up a club and build it to your hearts content.

    But where were the investors?

    But where were the sponsors?

    But where were the supporters?

    We were this HUGE soccer nation, but after a failed league we went over a decade almost without a 1st division. If your reform was going to happen, why didn't it happen then? MLS was formed and 350M was lost in trying to get this 1st division off the ground. Now you scream about entitlement, but why wasn't there a single real investment group ready to step up and build these superclubs as you imagine before MLS? So after all this money lost and 15 years of building you expect MLS to just suck it up and take the losses and stop surprising investment? Do you understand how insane you sound? If there was even a small fraction of the investors and sponsors willing to sign big checks to local soccer clubs, explain to me why they didn't do it over the course of a decade when anyone could have joined up into the 1st division for nothing?
     
  20. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Get back to me when more than two countries have high functioning (if you can call the CFL that) football leagues, exposed to international competition. You're comparing apples to oranges.

    I'll get back to you when MLL passes MLS - a perfect example of a domestic sport, in a league without international rival, that thrives in our domestically focused closed league.

    I'm more interested in club soccer prospering than club soccer owners. There's a world of examples in which people actually put the welfare of the sport in front of the welfare of owners - and gave supporters the best club soccer they could produce - not the best club soccer the business model would allow.

    Yes, it might look like a scary financial proposition. That's good. If you're trying to decide between owning a soccer team or a Subway franchise, I argue you should pick the latter. It is a lot safer - but might have a tad less glory.
     
  21. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which leagues has it succeeded whose clubs are exposed to real international (non-exhibition) competition?

    Admit you could care less about international play, and you win that side of the argument. From the top flight perspective, you should care less.

    Then, and I don't mean to stretch logic here, tell me why any league that manages quality of play for domestic parity should be entitled to the top of a pyramid that is exposed to international play? A pyramid that was designed to encourage the best possible quality of play?

    And then, try and tell me how opening the pyramid won't stimulate investment in lower div clubs - without trying to terrorize me with stories of the voluntary promotion of the stars and carolina, between lower divisions. It's not relevant.

    And please, stop telling me that the USA is so different from the rest of the western world that adopting this model would be like adopting the bidet.
     
  22. CCSUltra

    CCSUltra Member+

    Nov 18, 2008
    Cleveland
    Club:
    Hertha BSC Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Myself and others have all asked this question. He has yet to answer why an open soccer league (which has a trillion dollar track record) failed to materialize after the collapse of the NASL.
     
  23. soccerreform.us

    soccerreform.us New Member

    Mar 12, 2009
    Denver
    Club:
    Fulham FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I acknowledged the economic realities, and the owner entitlements attached to them, by helping to form a grassroots effort to change what the constipated free market couldn't.
     
  24. 4door

    4door Member+

    Mar 7, 2006
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    OK so,

    1. no acknowledgment of the 'history' debate. because all the nations I mentioned are large, have big economies, have soccer history, and have either not had a successful open league or have a closed league.

    2. no mention of the trillion dollar track record debate, where US franchise models producing higher success rates financially for both owners and players in various sports played here and abroad

    3. no mention of these US franchise models operating in international markets such as baseball and basketball

    4. no mention of US market only evaluating the top soccer leagues in the world as only a fraction as valuable as the NFL when deciding media contracts (10 to 1 difference between NFL and EPL).

    5. No mention of the fact that the US went over a decade without a real 1st division. No investors/sponsors/supporters stepped up. Ten years before MLS was formed and the league was truly 'open' the HUGE soccer nation couldn't produce a single ownership group willing to take that coveted top of the pyramid.


    OK so what are you interested in?
    1. pointing out apples and oranges. of course comparing the US to England is not apples and oranges but comparing soccer to basketball is...for some reason.

    2. non sports franchises. Every post has something to do with fast food restaurants for some reason. This is of course very relevant.

    3. Reality TV. Reality TV was popular in England before America...so this mean something as well

    4. US soccer almanacs from 80+ years ago. Forget about modern sports landscape and focus on the Fall River Marksmen and other clubs that died before most people had cars.

    5. Beatles lyrics. yes, this somehow helps us understand your point.

    6. Not worrying about finances of other people's money.



    So we all get your logic. And we tend to see how easily you dismiss reality.
     
  25. Stan Collins

    Stan Collins Member+

    Feb 26, 1999
    Silver Spring, MD
    And that, boys and girls, brings us to the post count limit.

    At some point, I'll start a real pro/rel thread on the practical points of the system, without the annoying distraction of what's "moral" or isn't. This one didn't strike me as the best, seeing that it was started in its current incarnation as Mr. Warmth mischeviously bumping the worst pro/rel thread he could find. If possible, it went largely downhill from there.
     

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