Many of the "scabs" seemingly got blacklisted and essentially their potential careers were ruined as a result of refereeing one or two MLS matches. They were not just college and National referees, but also several were already doing games at the Div. 2 level in NASL/USL, which helped in their performances. But maybe it was their only chance to do Div 1 and therefore worth the sacrifice? Or they thought, mistakenly as it turned out, that they would get more chances in MLS due to their willingness to help out in the "crisis." Kelly was very different. He had just been brought over as a PRO staff member for referee training and development, despite the fact that there were plenty of well-qualified people in the US who could have done that job very well and there was no real need to import someone from a federation that was ranked over 30 places below the US. It is not clear if he would have eventually become an on-field referee if not for the lock-out, which was conveniently timed as it happened. IIRC some referees from Puerto Rico were also brought in. PH
Again, distracting from the real point of the thread, but that's not true. Let's just ignore the 4ths on those 16 games that were done during the lockout. There was a total of 46 slots available over those two match days (8x3=23 per match day). Roughly 23 referees/ARs worked. A total of 7 are/were involved in MLS well after the lockout ended. That's a really good return considering that some of the referees were from Puerto Rico or the Caribbean and never had any hope or plans of officiating in MLS. Some of the other guys were former MLS referees who either wanted one last taste of MLS or thought this was their chance to get back into MLS (that was never going to happen). Then there were a couple that were too old to ever make into MLS (Jorge Luna Hernandez) and saw it as an opportunity to do an MLS game or were never seriously good enough to ever referee in MLS and they knew it themselves. It was basically referee fantasy camp for them. Take away that and you're left with what 10-15 referees/ARs (15 is probably too high) that had ability, potential, and were young enough to become regular MLS officials? Of those 10-15, 7 became regular MLS officials. Maybe to others, that's not a great return. To me that is fantastic. I know there is alot of nuance to this conversation as some would have been in MLS even if they weren't scabs. If you took 20 referees/ARs in a room and told them, you'll referee two games in the next two weeks and half of you will become regular MLS officials. The other half of you won't and won't get another opportunity. How many officials would jump at that chance?
I cannot stress how accurate this post is. The hotel accommodations, double occupancy rooms, travel schedule and arrangements are only the tip of the ice berg when it comes to difficult working conditions. PRO2 officials are required on weekly webinars to preview upcoming games, review previous games, and once a month join as a group for instruction. They log daily wellness, required workouts, and heart rate/GPS tracking. This time is completely uncompensated and failure to appear at even one of these meetings may get you removed from games or the the entire program. In fact, no cause is needed to be removed from the program at all. we haven’t even talked about promotions. What is the criteria to move through the system and be promoted to higher tiers. Nearly all games are not assessed in the USL so how do your mid ranked ARs get noticed in games that aren’t being watched? this situation is quite literally a case study in power imbalance. PRO holds all the control over the careers of all of the officials. The only thing offered in return for their hard work is that if you meet their undefined standard you may be considered for an MLS game and the threat that “if you won’t…someone will”. What’s the next requirement these officials will be subjected to or fear of being removed? Do they need to dye their hair? Attend 2 week long camps for no pay? How about 3 weeks at a tournament with no per diem? You’re asking them to trust PRO to do the right thing when the right thing isnt always in PROs best interest.
I'll reiterate that this whole divergence is way off-base relative to what's going on now, but I've got to chime in to say you really can't ignore the fourths. Go look at those names. They were all NRs who maybe had a shot at MLS and then absolutely didn't. Given several of the referees were previously retired MLS officials or international officials, you kind of have to look at the 4ths because by the numbers, they were the ones most likely to be aspiring MLS referees. And they all failed to make it. Kelly was a unique case. De Oliviera beat the odds. Everyone else who made it was an AR who likely would have made it anyway and taking those games might have delayed them. Guardia is the only one that I would put in his own special category given the VAR aspect. And there were both interpersonal lumps and financial ones (relative to what had to happen when they ultimately joined the BU) that may not have been worth it. This is a very subjective conversation that all comes down to probably how the five individuals actually in question (Bigelow/Longville/Guardia/Da Silva/Weisbrod) now feel about their respective decisions.
We just went through a random IRS audit where I work, and one of the key topics covered was independent contractor vs. employee. Based on that audit and the somewhat limited amount of knowledge I have in this area since I oversee our company's payroll department, I have a tough time thinking the bolded items would pass muster for making someone an independent contractor. It's one thing for me doing some grassroots games, high school, and the occasional collegiate match. I don't have to log my workouts and heart rate to work matches. I can choose to not work a game on a Thursday night if I'm going to have a busy Friday or if my son's heading out of town for a tournament on Friday. The PRO2 referees (at least in reality) can't do that.
The refs aren't allowed to work college games without approval from PRO. They aren't allowed to work other USSF games without approval from PRO. They are de-listed by every LAC as a result. So because you and the soccer organizations call them Independent Contractors does not make it a hard truth. I have to imagine some due diligence has been done here. As I recall, PRO didn't call any of the MLS refs employees until they unionized. OK, Boomer. You ran both lines uphill in the snow as well? I would hope that some game fee boosts come into play, but I don't see any mention of that in the statement from PSRA. The complaints from the refs I've talked to have little to nothing to do with game fees. We've come a long way from having 80 fans in the stands for a USISL game. It's been said elsewhere here, but the requirements from the leagues and PRO are really absurd here. Simple as that. 4th Officials get no expenses paid - no mileage, no per diem, no hotel, no nothing. PRO controls every aspect of the ref's season. If you want good referees, maybe we don't try to run them off with BS conditions.
I can't help myself from going down this rabbit hole, and I'm, obviously, not 100% convinced that they should have crossed the line, but I don't think you can equivocally say with 100% conviction that it was a bad decision/risk for those officials to take that plunge and cross the picket line. Let's take a look at the 4ths from those two weeks. Will Niccolls Canada CSA Marc Lawrence Bernhard Hosu William Anderson (Jamaican FIFA I believe) Nestor Chavez Jody Pinkerton Javier Santos Escobar (Puerto Rican FIFA referee) Bruno Mozzo John Dearmond Leszek Stalmach Miguel Panduro Take out the Canada 4th official and the two Carribean FIFA's and you're left with 9 4th officials could have made MLS after the lock-out. Most of these were national referees. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but how many of these above were serious candidates to ever become MLS regulars? It's obviously highly subjective and there is a ton of hindsight in regards to analysis of it ("since he didn't make it, he wasn't good enough," which isn't always true). Lawrence, Hosu, Niccolls and who else? I know Stalmach did some 4ths, pre-PRO, but he was always way too old to become a regular MLS official. I just don't think we can say for certain that it was a bad decision for the group overall.
Look at it this way... How many new MLS referees since the lockout could have taken those 4th (or even referee) spots? None of them did except De Oliviera. You can look at the 4ths and say "well they were never good enough." Maybe that's true. But it's a convenient way to reach the conclusion that there was no risk involved in taking the matches if you stipulate that the officials in question never had a chance. One could just as easily take the opposite approach and say all the new MLS referees since 2014 (other than De Oliviera) are there because they didn't make the mistake of taking assignments in 2014. Neither assertion is probably true. Again, in the end, if you separate Kelly and De Oliviera, I think it's probably a personal question for the five relevant officials. They are the ones who can answer the question of whether or not it was worth it.
This, besides the other considerations pointed out in another post, would invalidate the "Independent Contractor" designation. There is no "Independent" there, and I expect that the IRS would view it as an employer-employee relationship, reportable on a W2, not a 1099. When I refereed many years ago in the real NASL, we were all true Independent Contractors and as such were totally free to accept any other refereeing assignments which almost everyone did. The same was true as an assessor/instructor at all levels. I agree, these are BS conditions regardless of the pay and expenses issues. PH
I was peripherally involved in a similar audit and could not agree more. In short: Most people who are called “independent contractors” aren’t. It’s done by employers to avoid taxes, benefits and employee protections. Easy test: if someone tells you when you have to work and what you must and cannot do in your “free time” it’s probably not independent. Most “independent contractors” wouldn’t hold up under scrutiny but there aren’t many audits so employers get away with it. As for the idea that the process weeds out the weak and selects the strong, well, yes it does. It also weeds out a lot of the really good ones who wouldn’t (or couldn’t) put up with how they were treated. I had the opportunity to work with two people who started within a year of when I did and who both reached a very high level. There were both perfectly fine and did well but there were several who were unquestionably better referees who were encouraged to move up but did not. The determining factor: the two who advanced had significant financial resources and a nearly limitless tolerance for BS. I’m sure most on here have a similar story, so I’m not sure that the pressures we place on the up and coming really select for the best.
If we look at other US Minor Leagues for the major sports, the only ones who might get a shorter stick are the Umpires in MiLB. Those guys recently changed their CBA so they get $2k a month during the season and get 5 days to see their newborn kids. NFL doesn't have a true minor league since they scout from college, but NCAA D1 games pay well enough that those refs don't care. G-League for the NBA? Starting out you can get a $1k a game, and they pay for all of your travel, lodging, and food. And those guys can still work NCAA D1 games for $1k-$4k. It's hard to find any stats on the AHL/ECHL, but NHL minor league refs are making $50k-$100k. For that kind of money I'll do whatever fitness/nutrition you want. I debate if I want to move-up, but I look at the pay for USL and laugh. This week, I'm getting $200 for a JUCO center, and $177 for a D2 line. All within 40 minutes of my house. Why would I willingly limit my money making for what, $300? And I have to be at the locker room 90 minutes early and drive 3 hours there? Plus do all that other crap? Nah, I'm good being a nobody "Grassroots". I hope that union wins. These refs are criminally underpaid and soccer is losing out on a lot of talent.
Update: PSRA wins. https://mcusercontent.com/c604ef9f7...sion_and_Direction_of_Election.10_20_2021.pdf EDIT to say that this is light, yet detailed reading that would be educational for people who don't really understand PRO, PSRA and the interactions between the two.
PSRA wins in that they get to have a vote to unionize. Most striking to me in a quick read was: "PRO argues that officiating is not part of the business of soccer." Really? Is that even a smart argument for PRO to make in the grand scheme of things?
I read most of it... A lot of it is standard but... you do learn a lot of the inner-workings of how PRO2 operates within its officials and how they expect them to behave post-game/pre-game things Snippets of note: The leagues themselves fund travel to an assignment and may place limits on officials’ methods of transportation or the number of nights officials spend in hotels. However, the officials are also subject to PRO’s travel policies and contact PRO in the event that they have difficulty in securing travel related to a match or securing reimbursement for expenses. Official Thomas Felice testified that PRO, through Prus, demoted him from Tier A to Tier B because the USL questioned his travel expenses after a May 2021 match. The most common KMI mistake is failure to recognize a red-card offense. [as footnote] PRO argues that the officials do not have any economic relationship with PRO2 and do not render any services to PRO2 PRO argues that the instant case is distinguishable from PIAA because, among other factors, PRO does not certify the officials. Rather, all national soccer officials, regardless of affiliation or employment status, must maintain certification with the USSF to officiate matches. PRO argues that the officials do not have any economic relationship with PRO2 and do not render any services to PRO2. PRO argues that officiating is not part of the business of soccer. However, the Board has held that where members of the petitioned-for unit perform work that is an integral part of an employer’s final project, the workers and the employer are in the same business PRO also argues that it need not assign officials to non-MLS games; yet PRO devised PRO2 for the express purpose of developing future MLS officials, a task that would be impossible to undertake without assigning these non-MLS officials to non-MLS games.
A follow-up then is what they view is a part of the business of soccer? A referee training organization...that has no referees? Is PRO not part of the business of soccer? The one that kicked me in the teeth was that PRO tried to have these officials classified as "volunteers who officiate soccer matches in order to improve their skills." The audacity of these people to say that these officials are officiating games for S&Gs is beyond the pale. Especially when they are negotiating the pay for these guys. Do they not understand the definition of "volunteer"? It seems that we might have the results of the election by late November. I hope they don't screw up this chance to unionize.
I am *guessing* that statement in the decision overstates what PRO was actually trying to say in its argument. I would imagine that PRO was saying that these refs volunteer to affiliate with PRO in connection with these games and to do PRO training etc., as PRO was trying to establish that PRO was not an employer. The refs were obviously getting paid by the competitions. From a PRO perspective, I think it is true that the refs are doing the games and working with PRO in order to improve so that they can get full jobs with PRO. I do think it is a really interesting case from a legal perspective--I do think it is (as the opinion acknowledges) a very close case in terms of employee vs. independent contractor with respect to PRO. (I was guessing this one would fall the other way.) I expect there are many employment lawyers poring over the details of that decision this week, as this is a pretty hot topic in many industries right now that are seeking to get out of employer status. I'm also curious to see what will happen with the actual vote and what an ultimate CBA will look like in this space, as even though the NLRB has ruled it an employment relationship, it is far from a typical employment relationship as PRO doesn't pay them.
In PRO's defense (not that they need me to defend them or anything), I think they were saying that referees were voluntarily part of PRO2, they volunteered to be part of the training program. That they weren't compensated for being in the training program. Which is, of course, hooey, and the NLRB administrator points out. And they didn't "volunteer", they were invited.
I wonder how much of this headache could have been saved for PRO if they didn't make the officials wear those stupid "PRO II" badges. From reading the decision, that was one of the arguments made in favor of employee status. "While the leagues pay the officials, you make them wear PRO II badges." I'm really curious as to what benefits PSRA will be able to get for this new union.
I'm no lawyer, but my guess is that it probably wasn't a big factor. The biggest things that jump out to me, both from this thread and the NLRB decision, are the amount of uncompensated work and the restrictions on not being able to work other games in the 72-hour window around a PRO2 assignment. If all the referees had to do was show up for games, this would probably have a different outcome.
We're proud to announce the NLRB certified a successful unionization vote for #PRO Officials in #NWSL & #USL today. The final vote count of 68-3 in favor is a clear message that these professional Officials want better standards as they work these growing leagues. pic.twitter.com/SltVlEJzon— PSRA Officials (@PSRAofficials) November 30, 2021
Not surprising that PRO is asking for an appeal. I think the move is a bit tone deaf when the vote passed so overwhelmingly. However, I think the below tweet is also a bit unfair. I cannot speak for the particular MLS official but I can say there is a great number of officials that believe Howard Webb to be a genuine manager with the best intentions who is being forced by the leagues and administrators to be the figure head of a position he doesn’t support. 1468724883622404099 is not a valid tweet id
By all accounts, Webb has been pretty fair and supportive of PSRA. In any employee vs. employer relationship, each side will inherently try to squeeze as much they can within reason and decency. I think it's a really harsh statement by that anonymous MLS official. Webb isn't making these decisions in a vacuum and alone. He's been through the wars and I can only imagine the frustration he had with PGMOL when he was a referee and how he and others were treated. I'm sure he more than is sympathetic and understanding to referee's plights. But he is on the management side and he has bosses he has to report to. Labor and employer relationships are give and take. It can't all just be give to the employees and take by the employees. At the same time, employers can't just take advantage of employees and do whatever they want. There has to be a middle ground. Webb wants to keep his job too. I'm sure his job would be a lot easier if he just gave PSRA everything he wanted. You think Webb is keeping his job if he gave PSRA everything he wanted? All of us on this board and all referees will inherently side with PSRA. We all want what is best for referees. But we do need to take a step back, a little bit and try to view this case impartially as possible. I personally think that ruling was correct and that PRO2 officials are practically employees. As a whole, the argument in favor of employee status favors PSRA. But if you actually read the appeal, there are some really good arguments, legally, that don't favor employment status. For one, it's hard to be classified as an employee when PRO isn't directly paying you. There are also some other arguments in there that favor PRO's argument. There are also some that are just laughable by PRO. For example, they say that "PRO has no control over officials on-field performances." Then who does? Who is making those assignments? My favorite though is "PRO has not effectively limited officials’ realistic ability to work as a soccer referee for other leagues." Let's see what happens if you see a PRO 2 official doing a Sunday morning amateur or a college match that afternoon and doing a USL Championship middle that night?
All good questions. The argument regarding pay was brought up during initial hearing and since most of the officials considered are doing MLS 4ths and/or VAR they are actually being paid by PRO. I believe PROs argument is that those assignments are not a part of the PRO2 program