Pro/rel already exists in MLS, it works, and it should be a model for others

spejic · Oct 20, 2014

Next year Chivas USA is probably out of the league. Orlando and NYCFC are in. And those are done for the only valid reason for including or excluding teams from a league - financial and organizational stability. It's the reason organizations like Miami and Tampa Bay were dumped and ones like Seattle and Vancouver were added. And it has kept the league stable and internally competitive.

The idea that teams should be promoted into/relegated out of a league based on playing quality is antiquated. There is no such thing as "team quality" any more. DC went from last last year to first this year. Any system that would have relegated DC last year would have been wrong. Is San Jose a top team, a middle-table team or a bottom feeder? In the last three years they have been each of them. Once upon a time a team's quality was based on the quality of players in a specific geographic location, and wasn't prone to changing much. Those days are over.

In effect, the system of pro/rel in other leagues is a proxy for team financial strength, but is a poor approximation of it. The MLS system is pure, and does change when and if it is needed instead of doing it every year just for the sake of doing it. MLS does team picking right.

henryo · Oct 20, 2014

In MLS,

Promotion ~= Expansion

Relegation ~= Contraction

xtomx · Oct 20, 2014

spejic said: ↑

Next year Chivas USA is probably out of the league. Orlando and NYCFC are in. And those are done for the only valid reason for including or excluding teams from a league - financial and organizational stability. It's the reason organizations like Miami and Tampa Bay were dumped and ones like Seattle and Vancouver were added. And it has kept the league stable and internally competitive.

The idea that teams should be promoted into/relegated out of a league based on playing quality is antiquated. There is no such thing as "team quality" any more. DC went from last last year to first this year. Any system that would have relegated DC last year would have been wrong. Is San Jose a top team, a middle-table team or a bottom feeder? In the last three years they have been each of them. Once upon a time a team's quality was based on the quality of players in a specific geographic location, and wasn't prone to changing much. Those days are over.

In effect, the system of pro/rel in other leagues is a proxy for team financial strength, but is a poor approximation of it. The MLS system is pure, and does change when and if it is needed instead of doing it every year just for the sake of doing it. MLS does team picking right.
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That is just stupid, stupid, stupid.

Teams being removed from the league is not relegation, it is contraction.
Adding teams is not promotion, it is expansion.
They are not the same as all.

Another pro/rel discussion pulled out of someone's ass.

AmeriSnob · Oct 20, 2014

The idea that teams should be promoted into/relegated out of a league based on playing quality is antiquated. There is no such thing as "team quality" any more. DC went from last last year to first this year. Any system that would have relegated DC last year would have been wrong. Is San Jose a top team, a middle-table team or a bottom feeder? In the last three years they have been each of them.
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This argument is flawed on so many fronts.

For one, what in the world do you mean tat there is no such thing as "team quality" any more? I can't think of a single clarification that doesn't sound patently ridiculous.

Second, DC is only able to go from last to first because of a highly restrictive salary cap system. Without that system and with a system of free spending, DC is a perennial mid-table team (or maybe not, depending on how much money the owner wants to put into the club). San Jose as well, probably lower mid-table.The year-to-year variance in the standings for all teams would be drastically reduced in a system without a salary cap.

Third, promotion and relegation only exists where there are more teams that are qualified to participate in a premier division than there are spots that can logistically be handled.

Once upon a time a team's quality was based on the quality of players in a specific geographic location, and wasn't prone to changing much. Those days are over.
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They're hardly over. Except for the very top clubs in the world everyone is still reliant on domestic talent, even the top clubs rely on them to a large extent. And as long as limits on foreign players exist they will still be reliant on them. There is no denying MLS teams are reliant on American and Canadian players.

Achowat · Oct 21, 2014

Yeah, it's what North American leagues have been doing for centuries, but now, doesn't it sound so damn English

spejic · Oct 21, 2014

AmeriSnob said: ↑

For one, what in the world do you mean tat there is no such thing as "team quality" any more? I can't think of a single clarification that doesn't sound patently ridiculous.
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I mean the win-loss record is highly variable and is not a guide to which league a team should play in. How did you not get that?

Second, DC is only able to go from last to first because of a highly restrictive salary cap system. Without that system and with a system of free spending, DC is a perennial mid-table team (or maybe not, depending on how much money the owner wants to put into the club).
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So? We're not in that system. We're in the system where DC can go from last to first. Relegating them for being last would be an obvious mistake.

San Jose as well, probably lower mid-table.
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Who won the Supporters Shield in 2012?

Third, promotion and relegation only exists where there are more teams that are qualified to participate in a premier division than there are spots that can logistically be handled.
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Duh. I'm just saying they use the wrong criteria.

Except for the very top clubs in the world everyone is still reliant on domestic talent, even the top clubs rely on them to a large extent.
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I don't mean nationally, I mean locally. The city. You know, what the team is named. How many players come from the city in the team name? And if a team is not getting players from the blokes that work at the arsenal or that live around the west end sports club or whatever, then it plays roughly as well as the organization can scout and attract players and staff. Teams should be judged on that organizational standing.

spejic · Oct 21, 2014

henryo said: ↑

In MLS,

Promotion ~= Expansion

Relegation ~= Contraction

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It's all the same difference. It's just deciding which team plays in the top league.

Achowat · Oct 21, 2014

spejic said: ↑

It's all the same difference. It's just deciding which team plays in the top league.
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Pro/rel, by FIFA Mandate, must include an aspect of "athletic competition". Chivas is going to finish ahead of Montreal, maybe San Jose, maybe Colorado, and maybe Chicago. NYCFC hasn't played a single game in the history of association football. Orlando lost in the first round of the 3rd division playoffs.

It's not the same thing. Expansion/contraction is about economics, period. Pro/rel is about, primarily, competitive success. Exp/con is about potential, pro/rel is about results.

KCbus · Oct 21, 2014

This thread is completely misguided. Comparing what we have now to pro/rel in the thread title is a complete misnomer, and there are already plenty of threads on this topic.