I'm not saying they're wrong but I think that marks an increased tendency to recognise people who are still alive or played in the TV era, rather than a British agenda. It's the way in which the likes of Lawton or Franklin are often overlooked as well to give it a British slant.
I also hear for the first that brazilian Gradim's guy. In my book the brazilian cracks from early 30s were the likes of Fausto, Carvalho Leite, da Guia and Leonidas (last two youngsters). I'm sure, Lucas Gomes and ManiacButcher could help. I was thinking instead in uruguayan Isabelino Gradin, who starred in Copas America at late 10s, he played Inside Left and very very fast and techicall player. I'm not sure if he played Halfback later, but he could be in the roster for OG '24 (i think he was playing in an unnoficial association by then, due to existence of two parallel leagues). Olazar was seen as the best argentinian centrehalf until Monti comes to scene. As active player he was captain of the mytical Racing Club who won 7 titles in a row. Dellatorre is an odd choice, imho. I had in higher rating the likes of Paternoster or Bidoglio. Isola was among the best South American GKs in prewar era, but inferior to Tesoriere or Saporiti, but arguably comparable to chilean Guerrero or peruvian Valdivieso or argentinian Bello.
That is one thing but another thing is the greater congruence in lists. [I want to remark that the footage featuring Di Stefano is also scarce - do you know more than 10 full games with him?] Today it will not happen that one region of journalists selects Puskas seven or five times (England and Brazil respectively) and another one only one or two (Spain & Italy have two together, Germany has two as well). You can do the same for Cruijff by the way (nine out of ten German journalists select him while the Brazilians and Argentinians are not impressed) and others. Only Pelé and Beckenbauer are consistently picked and rank among the best four in each nation. Just (roughly) like how it would be today (32 years later). Whether it is an active British agenda, I would not say that is decisive or the case. A more plausible explanation (among others) is that English turned into the lingua franca of the world (in 1980s many thought Japanese or German would become that). Or their sports journalism has been on a higher level and more influential, with football journalism being leading across the globe. That doesn't mean that no counter-forces exist; after all, a large section thinks that George Best is wildly overrated and only considered as top 20 player of all-time because of the 1960s 'zeitgeist' he played in.
It was interesting to count up the Argentinian votes and see Di Stefano was in 4 out of 7 teams, Moreno in 2 (including once with Di Stefano) and Pedernera in zero. Could be that Di Stefano's performances for Real Madrid were still a big factor for those journalists that inlcluded him. Still, it's not a high percentage of inclusions compared to his selections overall. I also noticed that not a lot of Uruguayans got included (although firstly an all-time XI is restricted to 11 players of course so not to say many of them weren't highly thought of, and secondly judging by the 1999 vote if any Uruguayan journalists had made a team in 1981 it could have been a different story). Victor Rodriguez Andrade is the Andrade with some inclusions, although we don't know the age of the journalists and it would still have been a long time ago that Jose Leandro played when the teams were made in 1981. Schiaffino had by my reckoning 2 inclusions, from Batty and also an Italian journalist - both seem to be including him in quite a deep lying midfield role. Also I noticed no French journalist picked a Frenchman, although Kopa was in a few selections from elsewhere. Again judging by the 1999 top 10 from the French publication Onze Mondial (they awarded the Onze D'or of course, though on readers votes IIRC) Platini and Zidane could well have got multiple inclusions from Frenchmen if the same exercise was done today or even in 1999, especially if more French journalists were consulted.
That is why I'm keen on getting a hand on the (full) 1970 poll where journalists from 35 different nations were consulted. That is already 11 years earlier with possibly a few more having vivid memories of what came before the late 1950s. Yes, what you say in your post is what I was getting at. msioux75 Maybe you know some (old) polls like those? I've seen you also mentioning a few times that in the 1960s lists you saw Sindelar was a top 10 AT player, which aligns with the lists I came across over here (from a Dutch & Belgian perspective). Maybe you remember the list? Can it be useful and revealing? Example: https://www.bigsoccer.com/community/...scussion-thread.1245347/page-49#post-22495855
Carlos Alberto Torres was picked seven times. I believe its importance in 1970 - considered the best ever Brazilian side - and have a more assisted career by journalists (many wanted his call for World Cup 1974 and 1978) influenced. In 1981, Carlos Alberto was still playing in USA! The best days of Djalma Santos were in the late 1950s and early 1960s. But in 1996, Revista Placar published a poll of the same type as 1981, electing the All-Time Brazil XI. Considered only the Brazilians votes (journalists, commentators, coaches) Djalma Santos was picked more times than Carlos Alberto (the difference is small). The reason? I do not know. Maybe it's because more Brazilians voted in 1996 than in 1981. Or maybe because after 15 years, Carlos Alberto had retired a long time and his more assisted career hadn't influence in comparison with Djalma.
You're right ... The difference between them is small and they were different type of players (at least in style) Carlos Alberto was a bit more complete (can play fullback, wingback and centerback, great in attack, very good in defense, good creativity and leadership) while D.Santos was very solid and (a bit more) reliable on the left side. If we bring the 60-70's in to future of 80-90's, D.Santos was like Bergomi while Carlos Alberto was like a Maldini. Not exactly nor literally but an illustration to describe them Most "Europeans" would pick D.Santos for they had seen D.Santos did great at 3 WC's: 54,58 and 62 against C.Alberto with just one WC70. (I think)
Per nation (Placar 29 May 1981) Germany (10 publications) Beckenbauer – 10 Pelé – 10 Cruijff – 9 Djalma Santos – 9 Di Stefano – 7 Facchetti – 7 Garrincha – 7 Yashin – 7 Moore – 5 Gerd Müller – 5 Gento – 4 Bobby Charlton – 3 Eusebio – 3 Matthews – 2 Nilton Santos – 2 Passarella – 2 Puskas – 2 Santamaria – 2 Fritz Walter – 2 Zamora – 2 Andrade – 1 Breitner – 1 Didi – 1 Janes – 1 Maier – 1 Marzolini – 1 Pirri – 1 Schaefer – 1 Wright – 1 Zagalo – 1 Argentina (7 publications) Beckenbauer – 7 Pelé – 7 Garrincha – 6 Di Stefano – 4 Charlton – 3 Facchetti – 3 Krol – 3 Carlos Alberto – 2 Carlos Sosa – 2 Cruijff – 2 Kocsis – 2 Loustau – 2 Moreno – 2 Nilton Santos – 2 Yashin – 2 Alfredo Perez – 1 Banks – 1 Bidoglio – 1 Carrizo – 1 Dela Torre – 1 Didi – 1 Fillol – 1 Figueroa – 1 Garcia – 1 Gatti – 1 Julinho – 1 Isola – 1 Luis Pereira – 1 Maldini – 1 Maradona – 1 Marzolini – 1 Müller – 1 Olazar – 1 Orlando Pecanha – 1 Passarella – 1 Perfumo – 1 Picchi – 1 Puskas – 1 Rummenigge – 1 Sani – 1 Sastre – 1 Vogts – 1 Zito – 1 Brazil (10 magazines) Pelé – 10 Beckenbauer – 9 Garrincha – 9 Nilton Santos – 8 Carlos Alberto – 7 Di Stefano – 5 Moore – 5 Puskas – 5 Yashin – 5 Banks – 4 Cruijff – 4 Domingos da Guia – 4 Didi – 3 Nestor Rossi – 3 Charlton – 2 Orsi – 2 Best – 1 Bozsik – 1 Collman – 1 Djalma Santos – 1 Dzajic – 1 Figueroa – 1 Gerson – 1 Gradim – 1 Hidegkuti – 1 Krol – 1 Leonidas – 1 Loustau – 1 Meazza – 1 Maradona – 1 Matthews – 1 Moreno – 1 Müller – 1 Musik – 1 Schnellinger – 1 Schulz – 1 Sekularec – 1 Obdulio Varela – 1 Van Hanegem – 1 Zamora – 1 Zizinho – 1 Spain (4 magazines) Beckenbauer – 4 Di Stefano – 4 Garrincha – 4 Pelé – 4 Djalma Santos – 3 Gento – 3 Pirri – 3 Charlton – 2 Francisco Marinho – 2 Krol – 2 Zamora – 2 Banks – 1 Camacho – 1 Cruijff – 1 Gilmar – 1 Kaltz – 1 Keegan – 1 Maradona – 1 Ocwirk – 1 Puskas – 1 Rummenigge – 1 Obdulio Varela – 1 France (4 magazines) Cruijff – 4 Garrincha – 4 Pelé – 4 Beckenbauer – 3 Di Stefano – 3 Nilton Santos – 3 Yashin – 3 Boszik – 2 Facchetti – 2 Moore – 2 Puskas – 2 Djalma Santos – 1 Hanappi – 1 Hapgood – 1 Kaltz – 1 Masopust – 1 Matthews – 1 Müller – 1 Rensenbrink – 1 Rivelino – 1 Wright – 1 Zamora – 1 England (10 magazines) Pelé – 10 Di Stefano – 9 Beckenbauer – 7 Cruijff – 7 Puskas – 7 George Best – 6 Facchetti – 5 Yashin – 5 John Charles – 4 Djalma Santos – 4 Matthews – 4 Andrade – 3 Banks – 3 Boszik – 3 Garrincha – 3 Moore – 3 Gerson – 2 Ocwirk – 2 Breitner – 1 Carlos Alberto – 1 Charlton – 1 Finney – 1 Hanappi – 1 Hapgood – 1 Jairzinho – 1 Netzer – 1 Nilton Santos – 1 Kopa – 1 Krol – 1 Liedholm – 1 Luis Pereira – 1 Maradona – 1 Neeskens – 1 Passarella – 1 Santamaria – 1 Schiaffino – 1 Swift – 1 Varela – 1 Vogts – 1 Italy (10 magazines) Di Stefano – 9 Djalma Santos – 9 Pelé – 9 Beckenbauer – 6 Garrincha – 5 Nilton Santos – 5 Riva – 5 Cruijff – 4 Matthews – 4 Zamora – 4 Castigliano – 3 Charlton – 3 Liedholm – 3 Maradona – 3 Banks – 2 Parola – 2 Wright – 2 Yashin – 2 Carlos Alberto – 1 Caligaris – 1 Ciriaco – 1 John Charles – 1 Didi – 1 Facchetti – 1 Finney – 1 Gentile – 1 Gilmar – 1 Ghiggia – 1 Kopa – 1 Lorant – 1 S. Mazzola – 1 V. Mazzola – 1 Meazza – 1 Moore – 1 Monti – 1 Müller – 1 Neeskens – 1 Planicka – 1 Puskas – 1 Rosato – 1 Rosetta – 1 Rummenigge – 1 Santamaria – 1 Schiaffino – 1 Wildschut – 1 Zito – 1 Mexico (4 magazines) Beckenbauer – 4 Pelé – 4 Di Stefano – 3 Garrincha – 3 Carlos Alberto – 2 Charlton – 2 Cruijff – 2 Djalma Santos – 2 Figueroa – 2 Marinho – 2 Moreno – 2 Yashin – 2 Zamora – 2 Didi – 1 Facchetti – 1 Gento – 1 Gerson – 1 Moore – 1 Müller – 1 Nilton Santos – 1 Pirri – 1 Puskas – 1 Rummenigge – 1 Sivori – 1 Zito – 1 Peru (1 magazine) Banks – 1 Beckenbauer – 1 Charlton – 1 Djalma Santos – 1 Figueroa – 1 Garrincha – 1 Law – 1 Moreno – 1 Nilton Santos – 1 Overath – 1 Pelé – 1 Portugal (10 magazines) Pelé – 10 Beckenbauer – 9 Eusebio – 8 Yashin – 7 Cruijff – 6 Di Stefano – 6 Djalma Santos – 6 Facchetti – 6 Coluna – 5 Garrincha – 5 Didi – 4 Matthews – 4 Charlton – 3 Nilton Santos – 3 Puskas – 3 Humberto Coelho – 2 Germano – 2 Neeskens – 2 Ocwirk – 2 Zamora – 2 Azevedo – 1 Belini – 1 Boszik – 1 Carlos Alberto – 1 Kaltz – 1 Kopa – 1 Krol – 1 Lato – 1 Mauro – 1 Moore – 1 Travassos – 1 Wright – 1 Zico – 1 Zito – 1
Azevedo was someone I hadn't heard of before but just saw that he was a Sporting Lisbon hero in goal in the 40s. Also Wildschut? Piet Wildschut? Or is there another?
I think Wildschut is Piet Wildschut. There haven't been another Wildschut who is capped for Dutch or Belgian NT. Who is Mauro? Is that the Brazilian Mauro? http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauro_Ramos_de_Oliveira Is Ciriaco the Spanish one of 1930s Real Madrid? Mexico picked Marinho two times. Which Marinho is the most logical?
I thought it would be Marinho Chagas, also known as Francisco Marinho and listed as such by the Spanish jounlalists i.e the Brazilian left-back of the 70's. btw, I noticed Geoffrey Green had picked a team in what looks like a WM and then I found quite a detailed Wikipedia article on him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_Green So he was born in 1911 and turned 70 in 1981. Maybe he picked Di Stefano to play as deep-lying centre-forward but his line-up seems like this: -------------------------Yashin----------------------- V Andrade-----------Charles----------------N Santos --------------Bozsik------------Ocwirk--------------- Matthews-------------Di Stefano-----------Best --------------Pele-------------------Puskas------------ or maybe -------------------------Yashin------------------------ V Andrade------------Charles---------------N Santos -------------Bozsik----------------Ocwirk------------ ------------Pele--------------------Puskas---------- Matthews-------------Di Stefano------------Best I think he listed them in number order, so Ocwirk wearing 6.
Thanks PDG. I see now that I made some slight mistakes. I'll correct that in the full overview. The full overview is however very sensitive for the choice of one nation. For example, 5 out of 10 votes for Müller came from Germany; 6 out of 7 votes for Best came from England.
This are the ones with two or more selections, which is actually not very much (many names are selected just once). I also mentioned some corrections in parentheses. Total: Pelé – 69 Beckenbauer – 60 Di Stefano – 50 Garrincha – 47 Cruijff – 39 Djalma Santos – 36 Yashin – 33 Nilton Santos – 26 Facchetti – 25 Puskas – 23 B. Charlton – 20 Moore – 18 Matthews – 16 Carlos Alberto – 14 Zamora – 14 Banks – 12 Eusebio – 11 Didi – 11 Gerd Müller – 10 Gento – 8 Krol – 8 Best – 7 Boszik – 7 (forgot one of Italy) Maradona – 7 Moreno – 6 John Charles - 5 Figueroa – 5 Ocwirk – 5 Pirri – 5 Riva - 5 Santamaria – 5 (forgot one of France) Wright – 5 Andrade – 4 Domingos da Guia – 4 Gerson – 4 Liedholm - 4 Marinho – 4 Neeskens – 4 Passarella – 4 Rummenigge – 4 Zito – 4 Breitner – 3 (forgot one Portugal) Castigliano - 3 Kaltz – 3 Kopa – 3 Loustau – 3 Nestor Rossi – 3 Varela - 3 Coelho – 2 Finney - 2 Germano – 2 Gilmar - 2 Hanappi – 2 Hapgood - 2 Hidegkuti – 2 (forgot one England) Kocsis – 2 Luis Pereira – 2 Marzolini – 2 Meazza - 2 Orsi – 2 Parola - 2 Schiaffino – 2 Vogts – 2 Walter – 2 I hope it is this time right (no forgotten names).
I was not expecting to see Maradona listed here since by 1981 only one of the Argentine voters included him. Turns out he got 7 inclusions, six of which by voters from other countries...
1 Argentina, 1 Brazil, 1 Spain, 1 England and 3 Italy (Italian ancestry plays a role perhaps? Interest from Italian clubs? What could it be? Poll was published at the end of May 1981).
Have to say too that the gap between Di Stefano and Puskas is surprising - the size of the gap. With some European nations 'ignoring' Puskas too (and Brazil selecting him 5 out of 10 times, not bad). Very surprising given his goalscoring record (which can rival the one of Pelé, in meaningful competitions and excluding friendlies)
By then he didnt even have a club title of any kind under his belt yet. It could be that he was a hell of a player already. That factor surely had to do with it.. I dont think ancestry has to do with it. I dont really know where the Maradona clan comes from. It is a highly uncommon last name by the way. Never heard of any Maradonas other than them. I do believe Diego has native indigenous and Spanish blood in him. As far as I know, Barcelona desperately wanted Maradona already since 1980. In fact, Maradona desperately wanted to go play for them since the very first moment, but was not allowed by AFA/Menotti to leave the country before the WC. They had it all arranged before hand anyways... he was not gonna end up anywhere else. He got as many votes as Best did. Only that all but one of Best's inclusions came from England.
Don't mean it to upset you but the three inclusions by Italians (out of 10), compared with the other sections, is noticeable. Maybe among some journalists there is also a natural contemporary bias, see for example the # inclusions of Krol and Rummenigge. You would also see that nowadays (just like a bias among others to neglect active players). I see also see that Zico was 'only' picked once by May 1981. ------------- Anyone?
You didnt upset me. I guess that at any given time, some will be inclined to or feel the urge to include one or some of the current top stars in their all time XIs.
By the way, these 7 inclusions of Maradona are accompanied by zero inclusions for neither Zico nor Platini... None of them had yet reached the most notorious achievements of their respective careers, yet a still 20 years old Maradona gets voted several times while the Brazilian and the French get none. What can one make of this? Perhaps Maradona's raw talent and level of skill alone (without the push or extra thrust provided by silverware) was enough while in the other cases it was not? Perhaps Zico and Platini at the time, despite being already 28 and almost 26 years old respectively, were not as good players as they would still get to be?
BTW, I comment on this because some people do think that Maradona was not superior to these two in the early 80s.
Mistery solved... maybe. I think the "Gradim" guy choosen by Cid Pinheiro Cabral was Adhemar de Oliveira, one of the first polyvalent players (or maybe the first, the famous "coringa" here in brazil) in Brazilian soccer history. AKA "Amélia", he started as a CF but played most of his games as part of the center line (RH-CH-LH), and also some games as CB. 271 games and 97 goals for Santos FC. An obscure player and really odd choice to be honest, something like me placing Alex (my idol from Palmeiras and Fenerbahce) instead of Zico or Pelé as n° 10 in a Brazil All Stars. Some links in portuguese: Gradim 1 - Gradim 2 - Gradim 3 The "Gradim" that coached Vasco was Francisco de Souza. "Gradim" because he had a similar body type and playing style to the uruguayan Gradin. A great header and also a really creative/intelligent player that at the end of his career he turned into an offensive mid ("armador type") and later a respected coach.
Concerning Platini, it's been discussed several times in previous threads. Basically, there's enough evidence that he was as good in 1981 as he would eventually be later. What he did in Italy, he did the same with Saint-Etienne as soon as the late 70's-early 80's (and perhaps sooner with Nancy : remember he was quite close to win the Ballon d'Or in 1977). The point is that in 1981 he still played in a 2nd tier league and in a 2nd tier NT. Consequently he was a bit under the radar. It's only when he came to Italy, in a top-tier team with massive media exposure that his reputation grew up to Zico's and Maradona's standards. But his level actually didn't elevate.
We can't obviously look inside the head of those voters and what their evaluation was, but anyway; This discussion was done in the past but obviously the timing is important. Probably you'll see a different outcome when the poll is done in 1982, 1983, 1984 or 1985. Probably Platini will also do better if the poll was held in 1978 or 1979. Remember that after Maradona his first good Barcelona season (1982-83, which was quite good) many regarded him as overrated because he wasn't clearly the best player on the European continent (no "white Pelé"), with also the 1982WC being etched in the memory of many (where he actually played OK too but not clearly the best). In those time it could change very quickly. For example, both were a year later (June 1982) compared with Pelé, and seen as heirs of Pelé ("white Pelé"). http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...KgE-AAAAIBAJ&sjid=bEkMAAAAIBAJ&pg=6245,379617 http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...fQ9AAAAIBAJ&sjid=_EgMAAAAIBAJ&pg=2931,1883034 Notice how one of those articles mentions Zico his (incredible) goalscoring record at that point in time. A year later, everything is different with also their career (Zico his goalscoring in this example) being valued different. Which ofc happened quite often in those days, that at a certain moment in time 'captain hindsight' kicks in, and that everything that happened before that particular moment is seen with a different light and perspective. For example, Maradona shined on the Mundialito in 1981 and was together with Ruben Paz and a few others one of the best players. Zico wasn't present (with Socrates living up to expectations). 'Facts' like this can be seen in an entirely different light at various moments in time, because nothing is as strong as captain hindsight. When Platini moved to Italy and had immediately an impact (though with initial adaptation problems), everything that he did before was also seen from a different angle. That was completely natural, and indeed, his goalscoring record for France NT (when the team was not as good) and European club competitions was equally good before he moved to Italy. Either way, the timing is important. Not only for how their career progressed but also for how the past became valued. PS, this might be an interesting read http://news.google.com/newspapers?n...ehLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zo4DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6957,2005491
It wont stop us from trying, will it? Reading no further than this one can already get a clue or hint of the kind of thought sharing that will ensue. Good reads, thanks. Of course timing is important and has an influence. But I did express the following It is very possible that if they had waited to do the poll until Zico had won the Libertadores and had that great game against Liverpool, he might have earned some inclusions. Same if they had done it after Platini won the 1984 Euro. Of course, had they done it after the 1986 WC Maradona would not have gotten just 7 votes either... But they did do it in 1981, and none of them had the support of the greatest achievements of their respective careers to back them up (well, Zico had already been SAPotY once as well as Brazilian champion). Maradona did not have any advantage in this aspect. Yet, he gets voted into an ALL TIME XI several times while the other ones none. Like it or not, it does say something about Maradona's level of skill as a footballer, beyond career achievements and collective titles. I do not see why anybody would have selected Platini in an ALL TIME XI in 1977 or 1979, when he was not even seen as the best player in Europe at the time... Didnt actually know Maradona had been outstanding in the 1981 Mundialito, but I do not believe that could have much to do with anything. Was that tournament more significant than say, the WC qualifiers, becuase even when Zico missed the Mundialito he was a scoring machine at the time in the qualifier games...