Phoenix FC General Info and News page

It doesn't cool off here appreciably "later in the evening" in the summer. When there's no direct sunlight, it helps, but it's not like Florida, where evenings are far more pleasant.

They'll front load the schedule, I would imagine.

 

Oy, I didn't see this.

“Really, with the fan base that we have and the amount of people on the waiting list for tickets, I want to say we will probably sell out the first season,” Phoenix FC President Tim Thomas said during Tuesday's press conference where the club announced the stadium news. “It would be a tough ticket to get if you wait until the regular season. There are only 5,000 seats. We're concentrating on the experience for the fan. If you do it right, you should sell out every time.”

Wow. If he honestly thinks a low-budget, third-division team can average 5,000 a game...I don't know what to say. That's only been done 52 times in more than 1,400 team-seasons. Orlando and Rochester are the only teams that have ever done it in DIII.

Rochester (Raging) Rhinos - 17 times (high 11,628)
Montreal Impact - 11 times (high 12,696)
Portland Timbers - 10 times (high 10,727)
Vancouver Whitecaps - 6 times (high 5,542)
Orlando City - 2 times (high 6,604)
Puerto Rico Islanders - 2 times (high 5,378)
Syracuse Salty Dogs - 2 times (high 6,885)
San Antonio Scorpions - 1 time (9,176)
Carolina Railhawks - 1 (5,124)

The number of people who have stood up at press conferences and quoted a really high number for their projected average attendance at launch seems to be quite large. Over the years, many have done that. Few have hit their marks.

 

kenntomasch, are those all D3 attendance records? I thought that the Portland Timbers were always USL D1? (Which is D2, yeah?) Probably some of those others, yeah? Rochester has been both D2 and D3, so there might be some sorting out to do there. Montreal were always D2 until they moved up to MLS, yes? Well, looking on the Whitecaps site, I see that it's more complicated than that. Does the APSL count as D2 or D3? And the CSL?

OK, so my question here is, are some of those seasons for division 2 teams? Which would make your point that averaging more than 5K at the D3 level is a steep hill to climb, even more of a rarity.

And a separate question, how much of an existing fanbase do they have? This is a new team, right? It's not like they are a PDL team moving up, right?

Seriously? What fan base? Hell, maybe he's right. If he says that they have a bunch of people on the waiting list for tickets, maybe this is going to work out great. I hope so, but not going to hold my breath over it.

- Mark

 

I am using "D2" to refer to the old A-League, USL First Division, the USSF D2 Temp League and now NASL. While Portland was USL-1 (and then USSFD2), they were always a D2 team. And what is now called USL Pro is a D3 league, and the D3 records include that, the USL 2nd Division and the various names for USL's third-division league going back to 1996.

As I mentioned, only Orlando and Rochester have done it at the D3 level.

Does who have? Phoenix? They didn't exist 12 months ago, so anybody they have is new. There is a supporters group. There are certainly people here who enjoy soccer. Whether that means they'll get 1,500 a game or 5,000 a game remains to be seen. But I'm always going to take the under, for a variety of reasons.

The stadium situation and (presumably) the game presentation itself don't appear to be issues now. If ASU's yard looks like the renderings, I can't see how the stadium itself (other than the inevitable gripes by some about its location, and, of course, the parking situation) will be a cause for people shunning the team.

They have to go out and sell tickets. Not just say, "We're here, we're doing this, the team exists, you should come support it," because that doesn't work in this day and age. If they devote the resources necessary to have people actually working to pre-sell tickets, they'll be far more successful than if they merely take the (too-often) tried and (not) true method of running ads and hoping people show up.

 

There's not a huge difference in quality of play. NASL teams have larger budgets, by and large, and could attract (presumably) "better" players. Orlando skews things a bit in D3 because they have, through their first two years, had some legacy D2 contracts from when they were in Austin. But their level of support means more revenue, which means they can afford to pay higher salaries than most D3 teams. The gap between what Orlando and Rochester pay and what Pittsburgh pays has been huge, for instance.

As for the attendance difference between the NASL and USL Pro, the NASL averaged 3,806 last year (3,309 without San Antonio), while USL Pro averaged 2,686 (2,280 without Orlando). The NASL's average is 41% higher, which is semi-significant (taking out each team's top drawing club, the difference is 38%).

The NASL had 26 crowds of 5,000+ last year (out of 112 matches), while USL Pro also had 26, but out of the 128 matches I have numbers for (and only Orlando, Richmond, Rochester and Wilmington ever cracked 5k last year). USL Pro's median was 1,623, NASL's 3,154.

But if you ranked all 19 D2/D3 teams from last year, four of the top six drawing clubs were D3. But all six bottom-feeders were D3.

In short, yeah, there's only one real generalization you can make, which is budget helps you draw. And D2 teams usually have bigger budgets than D3 teams (with exceptions) and almost always have.

 

Ranking them all by 2012 average attendance:

Team.......................League.....G....Total...Average
San Antonio Scorpions......NASL......14...128,458...9,176
Orlando City...............USL PRO...12....79,246...6,604
Rochester Rhinos...........USL PRO...12....75,216...6,268
Atlanta Silverbacks........NASL......14....63,064...4,505
Wilmington Hammerheads.....USL PRO...12....51,183...4,265
Charleston Battery.........USL PRO...12....47,359...3,947
Carolina RailHawks.........NASL......14....54,363...3,883
Fort Lauderdale Strikers...NASL......14....50,610...3,615
Tampa Bay Rowdies..........NASL......14....43,620...3,116
Minnesota Stars FC.........NASL......14....39,148...2,796
Richmond Kickers...........USL PRO...12....28,550...2,379
Puerto Rico Islanders......NASL......14....26,101...1,864
FC Edmonton................NASL......14....20,888...1,492
Harrisburg City Islanders..USL PRO...12....17,418...1,452
Pittsburgh Riverhounds.....USL PRO...12....11,810.....984
Antigua Barracuda FC.......USL PRO...10.....8,181.....818
Charlotte Eagles...........USL PRO...11.....8,787.....799
Dayton Dutch Lions.........USL PRO...12.....8,703.....725
Los Angeles Blues..........USL PRO...11.....7,329.....666

 

kenntomasch, thanks for all of that. I've been following your attendance numbers for years. I'm sure you're right that the Wolves are likely to draw closer to 1,500 than 5,000, but I'd love to be wrong.

The Riverhounds ought to draw a lot more fans per game this coming season, so that should be a help.

I know that many USL watchers think that Antigua Barracuda are going to go away, but does it make sense that they would operate for two years to prep for WCQ, then fold, then start up again two years later? For the next WCQ? I expect them to stay around. Looks like Antigua and Barbuda are playing in the Caribbean Cup this fall, so perhaps we'll see them in the league again this coming season. (Though to be fair, their homepage looks dead.)

The other bottom feeders are a strange lot. The Blues seem to aspire to be a successful club, but their attendance is woeful. I'm not sure the Lions or Eagles are much concerned with attendance. The City Islanders look like they might want to show some life for their tenth anniversary, so maybe there's a little hope there?

For Phoenix, doing better than 1,623 would be good, if they can manage something closer to 3K or even 4K that would be fantastic. Thomas says that they have people on the waiting list for tickets, which sort of implies that they have sold all of the season tickets they mean to, holding some seats in reserve for traveling fans and walkups. (It's hard to imagine any significant number of traveling fans, can he mean that they've already sold out the whole stadium?)

I'll keep checking in during the season to see how it goes down there. Good luck.

And yes, making an effort to sell tickets, and to get your team mentioned in the local press, on local TV and radio, that's a big effort that cannot be overlooked, Facebook pages notwithstanding.

- Mark

 

This is why USSF needs to step in and make these clubs merge. This is insanity. Two different leagues? They are just killing themselves. Terrible leadership by the governing body. Thanks for the attendance run down ken. It speaks for it's self.

 

I was wrong about San Antonio, so I'm not going to bet my house, but I know this is a challenge for most folks.

As long as they work at it, again. And don't just count on the stadium making tickets fly off the shelves. I reckon there will be demand early.

It makes perfect sense, actually. The government was backing their program in (delusional) hopes of qualifying for the World Cup. They weren't going to, and aren't going to, and their coach left and it's likely the A&B federation won't be so quick to pour resources into the pro team again. The national team? Well, I guess they'll do what they do. But coming back makes no sense. Folding absolutely does.

LA hired Warren Barton as their GM, but I can't see how he'll be a big help business-wise. The Dutch Lions seem to only care about their academy and not their pro team. Charlotte has higher aspirations. But I'm not sure what "wanting to show life for their tenth anniversary" does to change anything. The City Islanders are a small-market, small-budget team that has to scrape to do everything it does. They have also had really bad luck with weather the last two years and have an untenable stadium situation. It's not about how much life they want to show.

That would be a first in the history of the game in this country. It is far more likely he was posturing. A 'waiting list' is, more likely, a list of people who expressed interest - not a list of people who were hoping for more tickets to become available. It would be highly, highly unusual for a team like this, in this market, where most soccer events have underachieved, to have already sold a significant number of tickets. Traveling fans? Please. Many USL Pro teams have trouble getting people to travel to their stadium, much less road stadiums. Richmond Kicker fans aren't coming out here. Rochester Rhino fans aren't coming out here. And there are precious few LA Blues fans to go anywhere.

 

Clearly, it's going to be a lot of work to get fans out to any stadium for soccer. Even MLS have to work hard at it.

My thinking with the Blues isn't that Barton will somehow help them put butts in the seats, but rather that they are willing to invest serious money in a GM (as opposed to getting a volunteer or doing it themselves), so I am hopeful this means that they are willing to spend money on advertising and recruiting fans.

The City Islanders seem excited about their tenth anniversary, but as you say, they are in a very small market. Can they do anything to improve their stadium? I'm guessing that the rent is very low. So if they could do anything to make it a bit more professional, and then get more Harrisburg residents excited about going to see the team ... maybe that helps? If they really are excited about their tenth anniversary and really do want to make a splash, as their website suggests, perhaps they have plans? Maybe they've squeezed some more money out of their sponsors? Could they somehow be getting some cash from the Union?

Phoenix seem to think that they are going to do well. Maybe they will. The bit about traveling fans was just me trying to think like them. If you have 5,000 seats in your stadium, you don't sell 5,000 season tickets, even if you have the demand. You keep a 1,000 or so on hand for visitors, walkups, traveling press, and so on. Now, I don't actually think that there will be any traveling fans, press, or out of town visitors, I'm suggesting that if I were the crazed owner of Phoenix FC, I might think that. Perhaps Thomas is more realistic and is just talking big to try to generate some excitement? Or maybe the pre-existing supporter's club is big enough to make a difference to attendance and he expect them to help drum up more supporters? (Perhaps with appropriate inducements?) Don't know.

As for Antigua Barracuda, I can see how you'd expect them to fold. On the other hand, the government might see investing in the soccer team as a means to nation building. They might be getting more out of this than the dubious benefits of running a pro team. Or, they might fold, yeah.

It will be interesting to see what happens. I'm rooting for the success of all the teams and to a lesser extent, the league. (Perhaps if the league's ownership were to change?)

- Mark

 

It clearly shows they plan on there being a 2013 season, and that they will spend money in pursuit of success.

Probably not, it might be, yes it would help but they're cash strapped, I'm sure they have plans but it takes money to execute them, there's only so much money you can squeeze out of sponsors and the Union has financial issues of its own.

Look, let me stop you right there.

Okay, seriously.

Every single person who's tried to do this has thought they were going to do well.

Very few have. Most have no idea how to go about it, or they have no idea what actually sells tickets, or they're naive about the amount of work it takes and the amount of money that has to be lost in pursuit of it. I've seen the Underfinanced Expansion Team Playbook run time and time again. Usually, you'll see something along these lines:

1 - Team announced to much fanfare. Owner makes some wild prediction about average attendance. Says they're in it for the long haul and are realistic about how long it will take to succeed.
2 - When opening night doesn't just sell out ("but we ran ads!"), they panic. When the second home game attendance is worse (because there's no "inaugural game" buzz as an impetus), they really panic. Usually about this time, the original GM takes a fall, or budget line items get cut, usually starting with marketing (if they were spending much there to begin with).
3 - The team starts losing, morale takes a dive. People start leaving. They'll usually go through a couple of PR people (or someone will add those duties to their existing duties when that person exits).
4 - At some point, the coach often exits, or the higher-priced players do, causing more of a downward spiral. You'll see fewer news updates, the website and social media will go un-updated because the intern that was doing it goes back to school or bails.
5 - It's not unusual for a "consultant" to come in at some point, someone with a bit of sales and marketing background, the type of person they should have hired at launch but didn't. It's often someone who's worked in the sport or the league before and had someone vouch for them. By this point, though, it's too late for them to really do anything.
6 - The team limps to the finish line and either folds up shop right then, or figures they'll correct the mistakes of year one in year two.

I've seen that very scenario many, many times. I'm absolutely not saying any of these things will happen with Phoenix FC. They may very well be a huge success. I'm just saying that happens quite a bit.

No. You don't. My GOD, man.

If you could sell 5,000 season tickets, you sell 5,000 season tickets. ******** walkups. Walkups are the absolute worst type of customers there are. Traveling press don't get tickets, they get credentials. Find tickets for visiting teams? Fine. Everybody used to be entitled to two, I think, or a handful for the other team to divvy up.

But holy shit, man, get...a...grip. Never hold onto a ticket you could sell. Never. Not with this product and its checkered history of having wide swaths of empty seats.

Ever seen on Animal Planet what happens when a small animal or bird is confronted by a larger animal or bird? They puff themselves out, make themselves as big as possible. Sometimes it works, and the predator thinks it doesn't want to mess with something that was bigger than it appeared at first glance. If you're trying to sell sizzle because you don't have a steak just yet, of course you're going to say you're going to sell out and it'll be a tough ticket and it's going to be awesome. That's what everybody says.

Here are just a few examples:

“Oh, my goodness, yes. I’ll be most amazed if we don’t sell 10,000 season tickets in St. Louis.”​

St. Louis Stars owner Bob Hermann, Feb. 21, 1967. The Stars did lead the league in average attendance, but at just 7,607 per game.​

​

“We’re not in this to make a fast dollar, and realize it will take three years, perhaps, to break even.”​

Lee Stern after buying an NASL franchise (the Chicago Sting) for $250,000 on October 31, 1974. They never did break even. ​

​

“I’m tickled pink. If we got 10,000 this time, we’re sure to get 15,000-18,000 next time.”​

Washington Diplomats co-owner Mike Finci after 10,145 fans came to RFK Stadium to see the expansion Dips lose 5-1 to Philadelphia on May 4, 1974. They did draw 11,887 for their second home match two weeks later, but then the bottom dropped out and the 7-12-1 Dips finished 11th out of 15 teams in average attendance at 4,975 per game.​

​

“We’re going to sell out every game. I believe it’s very, very doable.”​

Syracuse Silver Knights president Tommy Tanner. The expansion MISL team averaged 2,951 fans per game in the 5,300-seat Oncenter in the 2011-2012 season.​

​

“If we can increase our attendance by 500 or 750 a year for the next 10 years, that would be good and it’s something I can build a business around. But we have to be prepared for slow growth over a long haul. We’re not going to be selling 10,000 tickets by next season. If we’re here for 10 years, we’ll be big.”​

David Halstead, owner of WPS’ Philadelphia Independence, July 2011. The Independence - like WPS - no longer exists. ​

Well, covering your bases there, I see. "Nation building." Holy cow. Their national team had no success in final qualifying (getting a point at home against Jamaica) and its pro team won five games all season against third division American teams. They invested a bunch of money (for their FA) in training and prepping for the hex and got zippo out of it. I'd be very surprised to see them continue the experiment, especially since nobody in Antigua really seems to care.

 

A few points here.

The Portland Timbers limit the number of season tickets they sell. They could sell out the entire stadium before the season starts, but they hold some back for individual game sales. All tickets are still gone before the season anyway (but they always have a few for traveling fans). So, if the Phoenix guy, Thomas, is thinking like that, that might be his rationale. I'm not saying it's clever, just he might think that. Or, it's possible that they've had a lot of people put down deposits for tickets, or contact them to get on the list for when tickets are available. In which case, he may be thinking that all of these people will buy tickets, when in fact, they won't.

The Antigua and Barbuda FA are PUMPED that they got out of the first round of minnows. Here.

My emphasis.

Now they didn't say that they'd keep Antigua Barracuda going, but they very well might with this attitude. This is their national team program, and it's way less expensive than it might be. Of course, the country is strapped for cash, so it's hard to say. Still, I expect them to come back. I acknowledge that they might not, but if I had to bet, I'd bet they are back for the 2013 season and beyond.

As for my unwarranted optimism on other teams ... and I know full well that my optimism is unsupported by the hard facts ... Somehow, the Pittsburgh Riverhounds got it together to create an excellent little stadium downtown! Somehow, some way, an owners group appeared out of nowhere in Sacramento, and they are the successful owners of the successful minor league baseball team in Sacramento. AND, in a largely unexpected development, Phoenix will have a USLPro team, and those dudes have worked out a deal to play in a decent stadium which they are going to expand dramatically with their own cash. (And there's a new team sprouting up in Northern Virginia, and MLS have more cities that want to join than they have room for.)

Now, all of these developments may well evaporate like moth pee on a lightbulb, but it suggests growth of the game, and interest from sponsors with more money. Money clearly will be the key to growing the sport. (Or growing a company, or a business, or a rock and roll band, or a bar, or pretty much any project.)

So, in a cold-eyed sober view, we have to think that this is a lot of excitement over developments that will go the way of the dinosaurs. But, if I'm right, if the oracle bones are not lying, at least some of these projects will be fruitful. I don't expect an explosion of soccer popularity, but I do expect continued steady growth. I may be full of crap, but hey, I've been in a good mood the last two years.

- Mark

 

This was added to that article about wanting to sell out every game:

http://www.azcentral.com/insiders/o...x-fc-stadium-press-conference-news-and-notes/

 

Ha ha!!
Not too clever. If you're going to shoot for the stars, you can't give this answers when "pressed." Hey, they didn't water-board him, so he ought to have stuck to his guns. "It's our plan to have lots of sell outs. We're going to work our tails off to make that happen. If it doesn't, then we'll have to figure out why not, and work harder."

Damn! Maybe I could be a PR guy?

- Mark

 

Ok, there seems to be a lot of misguided knowledge here about why some times have low fan attendance, and why some teams have high. Orlando has great fan attendance because they created a big buzz during their expansion phase, then delivered an awesome product on the field by bringing in players that can dominate at that level. They are very strongly backed financially, and have plans to build their own stadium, which keeps them in local news (aside from week to week match news)

Phoenix so far seems to be doing exactly that, except that we're already going to start with our own stadium.

PFC is very well backed, financially. That coupled with the experience Rui Bento and David Robertson both bring, i'm very sure that things they know what they are doing. There are 500~ people on season ticket lists with deposits put down.

What PFC has going for it that the devils advocates team examples did not.

1. Quality stadium
2. Quality signings
3. VERY large budget that comes from the owner who is intimate with the team, not just some guy who knows a guy who knows a guy
4. DEMOGRAPHIC - The demographic for American soccer viewers is the demographic that populates Tempe. Add the massive hispanic population that see's the club is bringing in Brazilians and Mexicans, and thats a gold mine.
5. very decent sized buzz before pre season has even started. That will triple once players arrive and training starts/players are sent out for appearances etc etc
6. Preparation. They have been getting this together for 2 years now, and almost went into the league last season, but decided they didn't want to rush in without every sorted out, so they decided to wait, which shows good business character, and brains.

They have almost everything going for them except that Phoenix hasnt had any support for a soccer team in the past. Has there been a soccer team in the past? Thats arguable, but one thing is for certain, there hasn't ever been one as serious as this.

Only time will tell, so i'm as interested as you guys are to see how it goes.

One thing I will predict is that they will 100% for sure sell out the home opener, that goes without question.

How they do in pre season against Sounders, and whoever else they can pull in will give us a better clue.

great conversation and points by everyone btw i've enjoyed watching you guys have this type of intellectual discussion about it.

 

Gutika113, I sure hope you're right.

On the one hand, we've all seen teams announced to great fanfare, with their owners declaring high expectations, only to watch them crash and burn.

On the other hand, soccer has been growing in popularity, visibility, and in it's ability to attract investors with deeper pockets and more commitment. So you might be right. Phoenix Wolves might average close to 5K per match, and they might get enough media attention, and they might be able to attract enough sponsors that they are financially successful. (Or at least not lose so much money that their owners cannot sustain the losses.)

I don't want to say that I think soccer has reached "critical mass," but I do think that we might be on a growth trajectory that will see an increase in popularity, visibility in the media, and an increase in lucrative sponsorships. I could be wrong about this, I don't have a crystal ball. (At least, not one that works.) But it looks sort of like the beautiful game is attracting more sponsors, and more committed sponsors, more investors, and more deep pocketed ownership groups. It's looking good. I don't think that soccer will overtake basketball as the third most popular sport in the USA in the next few months, but I do think that we will get a big enough market share that we will notice the improvement.

At least, this is my hope.

- Mark

 

Anyone else see this: MLS Working with USL-Pro on Reserve League Integration?

While I think the idea is good, I don't want Phoenix FC to be affiliated with Salt Lake (there is nothing Royal/Real about it) or Chivas USA. Those are the 2 teams people (BS posters and commenters on the article) are speculating would be associated with Phoenix FC.

 

I can't answer that question without breaking multiple forum rules. It has more to do with classless Salt Lake fans (i.e. their response to the Aurora theater shootings) than the organization itself. I'm well aware of their academy. I've played against a lot of former academy players.


Anyone have any reliable information about the actual cost of season tickets? I've heard from $187, then I read something about a discounted price for the next 2 weeks? Are tickets in the supporters section more or less than others?

 

I am not interested in supporters section tickets; I was just curious about the pricing. I'm all for what supporters groups do, but that is not for me. I just want to know more specifics before I put my deposit down.