Simple question: who was better player - Messi at WC 2022 or Maradona at 1986 WC? Considering all factors: level of play, level of football environment, level of opposition, level of teammates?
I think the answer from an eye test is Maradona 1986—though I note that I do think Messi had a superior final to Maradona. So then the question becomes whether Maradona’s opponents were weaker such that it was easier to shine against them. Certainly, Belgium (who Maradona had one of his two truly marquee performance against in 1986) was a bit of a fluke team, so the performance against them does perhaps need to be discounted a bit as compared to Messi’s performances against top-tier opponents. An argument could probably be made that strength of opponent puts Messi’s performance ahead. But it’s ultimately not an argument that I would find particularly convincing. Messi had an amazing World Cup, but Maradona had an even better one in 1986 IMO.
Hmm, maybe, but for example.... Not inferior I think to the Argentina (Di Maria) goal vs France with the team move, and the Enzo Fernandez goal vs Mexico (but admittedly the Scifo free-kick was disallowed I should say). Maybe Argentina's group stage opponents were arguably perhaps slightly better this time as a collection (partly because of development of tactics etc for smaller teams), but I don't know about Australia 2022>Uruguay 1986, or Netherlands 2022>England 1986, or Croatia 2022>Belgium 1986, or France 2022>W.Germany 1986 necessarily (some I'd go the other way on for possibly I think, like actually England, probably Uruguay even though they didn't do great in the tournament compared to what might have been expected by some including bookmakers, and maybe indeed Belgium even, compared to the 2022 opponents...and not forgetting Italy was one of Argentina's group stage opponents back then too).
It is not a question for me. Messi looked more like Roberto Baggio in 1994, but playing in a better team and with a happy end than Maradona in 86 (or Cruyff 74, Eusebio 86 or Garrincha 62, some could say even past of peak Pelé in 70). Messi-off-the-ball work was literally zero and Argentina had players with enough quality to find him between the lines, of course he had enough wow moments, but his baseline performance was average. Maradona provided much more to make Argentina functional in that World Cup. Both WC full of strange and suspect moments in favour of Argentina btw.
Not sure I agree with that—I thought his passing was really good, and he also got a goal in open play and buried a penalty and another in the shootout—but I said his final was better than Maradona’s final. That’s not mutually exclusive with it not being one of Messi’s best performances in this World Cup. Maradona was not amazing in the 1986 final.
Maradona probably had the best single performance of either man against England in the QF but Messi was probably more consistent. He was really good in the whole knockout stage and as said had a better final match than Diego.
I think a peak Maradona in 1986 was simply capable of more consistent danger and better all around dynamic play than 35 year old Messi in 2022. Messi certainly has the superior Final though, and with key moments in every knockout match. Statistically, we're comparing 7 goals and 3 assist over 7 games in 2022 to 5 goals (let's not forget one was a handball) and 5 assists over 6 games in 1986. I'd say there is no real significant difference in quality of opposition. But, this World Cup was probably more beneficial to attackers (Messi in particular was quite protected) than in 1986, with more goals per game and awarding many soft penalties. It's a cliche, but Maradona did his thing on questionable pitches and needed to hurdle dangerous tackle after dangerous tackle. Overall, Maradona 1986 stills sits slightly higher in mind than Messi 2022, but both are up there with the very best all-time WC campaigns.
Messi was influential in the first 70 minutes then gassed out and did nearly nothing when France came back, actually being at fault for the equalising goal. Everyone started backing France to win purely because of the assymetry between Messi and Mbappe’s influence at the end. I’m not even going to talk about this stupid “open play goal” category. His penalties were better than that.
Even if that were correct (which I don’t think it really is, since I think he did plenty of good stuff after 70 minutes, though I agree him being dispossessed started the attack that led to the 2-2 equalizer), being “influential” in 70 minutes of a game where your side dominated and got ahead 2-0 is a big deal. Furthermore, you’re ignoring that he had a very important and decisive moment later in the game—scoring a goal in extra time. And again, I remind you that you’re objecting to a comparison I made with Maradona’s 1986 final. Maradona wasn’t particularly good at all in that match, so saying Messi was better in this final isn’t a particularly high bar.
Most people wish they could be influential for 7 minutes in a WC final, so being influential for 70 is absolutely amazing already. In a lot of sense, Messi has already done his job of getting the team up 2-0, something he failed to do last time in 2014 (even excluding Higuain's missed chance, Messi missed chances of his own as well). Keeping in mind that without constant supply from his team, Mbappe had very little influence as he was unable to drop deeper to impact the game in a manner that a Messi or Maradona could.
I think that's probably a fairer comparison (a while ago I also said I didn't think there'd be a lot between Baggio 94 and Messi 14 if I was being fair, and as a full tournament I probably see Messi's 2022 as above his 2014 one myself), although I'd possibly be inclined to stop a little short of it and put in more in the ballpark with Brolin from that year (not so similar in context as with Baggio possibly, but I'm thinking in terms of performance levels and impact on the team: I feel like Baggio once he'd hit his purple patch of games was better, and he was much younger to be fair so it ought not to be surprising if he was really, although on the flip side he did less in the group stage and obviously the Final went worse for him and his team and he missed a penalty in the shoot-ot too while Messi, perhaps in better physical condition at those moments to be fair, scored his and perhaps made a better decision on how to take it albeit it's easy to say that after the event knowing what happened) I'd put Griezmann and Mbappe in a similar ballpark from 2022, as Messi too, as I said on the main 2022 World Cup thread (not clearly having an order in mind - I don't think it's any shock Messi took the Golden Ball though and given Argentina won that's natural probably, regardless of the overall narrative about his career) Tomas Brolin – Best Player In The World Cup 1994 ● Moments of Genius - YouTube Maradona 86 over Messi 22 I'd say for sure to be honest, and comparing their Final performances I think I'd have it close (with both not fantastic/perfect, but good to arguably very good and with some important moments obviously). 1st game - Maradona clearly. 2nd game - perhaps Messi slightly. 3rd game - Maradona by a little bit maybe. 4th game - Close (could be Messi actually maybe, but not by a lot I think). 5th game (QF) - Maradona, even though one of Messi's best games or his best of the tournament outright possibly. 6th game (SF) - Maradona fairly easily for me. 7th game (Final) - Undecided (close I think for sure). It's hard to say, but I don't feel like either set of games was substantially harder than the other, to impress/be effective in as a collection of 7. Different eras, different context etc though so hard to be sure like I say.
Its very interesting take even if I disagree! I think overall perfomance slightly favor Messi and his final was much better, but its just my opinion. He has more great games, but Maradona vs belgium is maybe the best. Maradona vs England I dont see as close to his Belgium game level aside of 2nd goal. And his first goal was just... not goal. For me: 1st game - Maradona 2nd game - Messi 3rd game - Tie 4th game - Messi 5th game (QF) - Tie 6th game (SF) - Maradona 7th game (Final) - Messi If we take 5 best overall: 1. Maradona 1/2 2. Messi 1/8 3. Messi 1/2 4. Maradona 1/4 or Messi 1/4 5. Maraodna 1st game or Messi final I think Messi final game is very underrated, he has a lot of key passes, dribbles and 2 goals. His overall level of play was much better than Mbappe IMO.
For clarification, that video title for Brolin 'best player in the 1994 World Cup' is not quite my view, so I was probably placing Baggio a bit ahead (of Messi 22 too, but to be honest I wouldn't say it was ridiculous if someone said Messi 22>Baggio 94, while perhaps it would be to say Messi 22>Maradona 86).
That's fair enough (and worth the rep for laying out your ideas) mate, and yeah Messi did have some good spells where he was controlling the ball well, using the ball well, doing some good little bits of dribbling (vs Poland especially), and some of his best moments were certainly quality as well as clutch (the assist vs the Netherlands for example; even the goal vs Mexico although that wasn't out of the ordinary for good players I'd say to be fair). I'd rate Maradona's England game a bit higher then but I see what you mean to an extent in terms of involvements and plays compared to the Belgium game (and it's hard to judge whether the whole sequence of play should be nullified for the Hand of God goal - I think I'd credit the early bit which was really good to be fair, but not the handball itself). I'd rate Messi's Australia game lower it seems too then (and Maradona vs South Korea and perhaps Bulgaria higher, albeit group games anyway and the Bulgaria one can be looked at both ways as it was mixed in terms of the success of his actions overall). I definitely don't want to be branding your conclusion ridiculous anyway lol (I did say perhaps in my above post, and you are saying it's at least very close and just making a case that it could be Messi rather than saying it clearly is anyway).
Sofascore would offer a middle viewpoint I guess anyway (but I think everyone accepts it's not an 'ideal' source in terms of giving the game ratings - it's just a calculation based on the metrics, without value judgements, context etc placed on top of that: on the other hand I do doubt myself to some extent, in terms of whether I was retrospectively a bit knee-jerk with suggesting 8/10 for Maradona's Final in 1986, or indeed Baggio vs Spain in 1994, which Sofascore do end up giving significantly lower - I think media sources, some at least, did give those performances more than Sofascore did too though with their traditional style ratings): Diego Armando Maradona No team videos, transfer history and stats - Sofascore Lionel Messi Paris Saint-Germain videos, transfer history and stats - Sofascore I say middle viewpoint, but it's closer to Gregoire's than mine in effect probably (and closer to Gregoire's than our poll consensus too). Again, media ratings for sure had Maradona rated higher though: Football Ratings: Average ratings World Cup 1986. (football-ratings.blogspot.com) There is strangely a post on that site giving Messi a 10 out of 10 for the Final though I see (but another one saying 9.3 which is still very high but not maximum) Football Ratings: Player ratings Argentina 3-3 France (4-2 pen.) (football-ratings.blogspot.com) Football Ratings: Boletín de Calificaciones del mejor partido de la historia (football-ratings.blogspot.com) I'm assuming that doesn't take him above Maradona's average (Titanlux possibly has a record of all the Messi grades published on there). It's not clear to me what the source of that 10/10 is but I guess not an average between multiple Italian sources (which the 1986 ratings above are) - perhaps a single source, Italian, or even Argentinian (it'd be good if the specific sources were published with every post really, although I believe they are genuine anyway)?
So game by game Sofascore had it: 1: Maradona (9.1 to 7.7) 2: Maradona (8.3 to 7.9) 3: Messi (8.2 to 6.9) 4: Maradona (8.5 to 8) 5: Maradona (9.6 to 9.1) 6: Maradona (10 to 7.8) 7: Messi (9.2 to 6.3) In that way it's maybe closer to my calls actually, but they end with a couple of particularly low grades for Maradona, which balances out the average and makes it close. Interesting to see anyway (albeit every stats site calculates the same stats a bit differently, so WhoScored's results might be somewhat different had they done the same for example).
3 non penalty goals+ 2 assists in a single World Cup for a 35 year old is really impressive but if we’re talking about all time(including every player who ever featured in the competition) it’s below the standard of most golden ball winners Those penalties likely/possibly could’ve been converted by any other player And it’s not like he was earning his spot kicks let alone winning them with some legendary dribbling runs(Eusebio vs North Korea springs to mind or even to a lesser extent Johan Cruyff in the opening minutes vs west Germany) He wasn’t a player of 90 minutes like Cruyff and maradona but one of great moments It’s debateable if the nature of Messis contributions(a penalty won by Di Maria and a scruffy tapin) is definitely superior to to Maradonas through ball assist to win 3-2 Is a fully strengthened 1986 West German side really being compared to a depleted French team(with many missing players and some random flu that effected the team before the final) https://amp.theguardian.com/footbal...oman-train-apart-virus-france-world-cup-final The french back line were operating at 50% Varane literally collapsed in extra time for anyone who remembers Coman who missed a penalty in the shootout was also another https://www.getfootballnewsfrance.com/2022/kingsley-coman-misses-france-training-with-flu-symptoms/ Can we put anything past Qatar(proven to have bribed their way into hosting a World Cup) Is there really a better way to white wash their human rights record and the negative spotlight surrounding them then having their employee who happens to be a 7 times ballon dor winner lifting the World Cup donning traditional Qatari clothing in front of billions of people Is there a better route to gaining worldwide acceptance than having the greatest achievement of the idol of billions forever associated with your country Personally I have no problem with them hosting the tournament but we know how much they want to shake off their medieval reputation(and the lengths they’ll go to may know no bounds) Slightly off topic There was a big fuss in the British press about Qatar’s human rights violations against minorities(namely the LGBTQ) and how much it was an outrage for them to host the competition They forgot to mention England hosted and won the World Cup in 1966 Homosexuality was decriminalised in Britain in 1967 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_Offences_Act_1967 Qatars policies are rooted in medieval folklore And the British press agenda is something close to evil
I can see the merit in most of this, but when it comes to the World Cup, I am very reluctant to discredit any sort of goal. Scoring a penalty in the WC is very different to scoring a penalty in a league game. Sure, someone who could've scored those penalties, but someone else could've also missed those penalties. The fact that Messi didn't miss one should be a great credit to him. England could've been playing the final if Kane was as consistent a PK taker in this world cup. Or even tap-ins. Argentina lost the WC2014 final because Higuain missed an absolutely golden chance. These "Easy" chances are not a sure thing at this level. The fact that Messi did get into that position and scored it, particularly after his teammate, Martinez, failed to capitalize on their chance, should be a credit to Messi.