Look at his Naivety in conclusion: But the virtue of youth is its resilience. Perhaps in a half-century from now, Pele’s name will be long forgotten, and our grandchildren will be embroiled in a similarly tedious debate about the relative merits of Lionel Messi and Ross Barkley. Every generation ultimately remakes its own truth. ============================================ I can challenge him that in the next century Pele was always the king of football . Pele hung up his boot in 76-77, and "HALF century passed" in WC2006 and WC2010 ... who did ever come close to his status? NONE ... Messi failed at 2010 and people are still have a very slim hope with his WC2014 ... and even so ... Pele won 2 or 3 "half a century" before
As a continuation of the post in the other thread ( http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/footballs-mount-rushmore-by-era.2013078/page-3#post-31409227 ), I looked at the composition of Brazil their squads between 1957 and 1970 (except the 2nd South American championship in 1959, 1963 and 1967 when they sent clearly sub-par squads, dropped out entirely or some state leagues refused to release players). 1957 Carioca 13: 3 Botafogo, 3 Flamengo, 2 Vasco da Gama, 2 America, 2 Bangu, 1 Fluminense Paulista 9: 4 Corinthians, 2 Santos, 2 Sao Paulo, 1 Portuguesa 1958 Carioca 12: 4 Flamengo, 3 Botafogo, 3 Vasco da Gama, 1 Fluminense, 1 Bangu Paulista 10: 3 Santos, 3 Sao Paulo, 2 Corinthians, 1 Portuguesa, 1 Palmeiras 1959-1 Carioca 13: 5 Vasco da Gama, 5 Botafogo, 1 Fluminense, 1 Bangu, 1 Flamengo Paulista 9: 3 Santos, 2 Palmeiras, 2 Sao Paulo, 1 Portuguesa, 1 Corinthians 1962 Paulista 13: 7 Santos, 3 Palmeiras, 2 Sao Paulo, 1 Portuguesa Carioca 9: 5 Botafogo, 3 Fluminense, 1 Bangu 1966 Carioca 11: 4 Botafogo, 3 Fluminense, 2 Flamengo, 1 Bangu, 1 Vasco da Gama Paulista 10: 6 Santos, 2 Sao Paulo, 1 Palmeiras, 1 Corinthians Gaucho 1: 1 Gremio Mineiro 1: 1 Cruzeiro [note: purportedly more decided by intra-club politics as actual performance by players] 1970 Paulista 11: 5 Santos, 2 Corinthians, 2 Palmeiras, 1 Portuguesa, 1 Sao Paulo Carioca 6: 3 Botafogo, 2 Fluminense, 1 Flamengo Mineiro 4: 3 Cruzeiro, 1 Atletico Mineiro Gaucho: 1: 1 Gremio That is quite a change compared with the 1940s, as expected and congruent with what I've personally read in history books (= Paulista league had increased in quality since the early/mid 50s). Of course, the heavy representation of the Santos football club has an effect on the numbers.
Yes it does. Actually, the number of Paulista players not from Santos is rather unchanged throughout. There are less Carioca players in proportion due to the significant increase of players "provided" by the Santos team, which makes all the difference. There is always 6 or 7 Paulista players form other teams but Santos except in 1966 that had only 4.
the only problem is that the NFL is not a "world game" (that I know of). It's not even an olympic sport. I think the concept of a "greatest athlete" is not just about their skill but also of the global reach of the sport he plays. It's why people consider guys like Pele, Michael Jordan, Usain Bolt, Roger Federer, in the category as opposed to a Joe Montana or Wayne Gretzky or a great indian cricket player who may have all the athletic skill and championships imaginable.
I asked AI for 1 top 30 sportsmen, prioritising peak level (relative to peers and also in theory human potential, and considering equipment they used etc): [I did show it an attempt of my own (from another thread I had started re: favourites and suchlike too) and it did seem to approve of mentions of David Rudisha and Franz Klammer specifically though - sorry about presentation (it had made the first list including females, relative to their competitors too, suggesting Biles in Gymnastics was executing/performing comparably to top-level males I think too after my question/query about that though - I don't know enough about that sport) so 4 other males were then added on request and the numbering changes but it's impossible to delete numbers and press enter without them re-appearing!] Donald Bradman (Cricket): The ultimate statistical outlier. His average of 99.94 is roughly 4-5 standard deviations above the next best. He was "twice as good" as any other human. Tiger Woods (Golf): Specifically the 2000-2001 "Tiger Slam" version. He achieved a level of dominance over elite rivals that felt mathematically impossible. Wayne Gretzky (Ice Hockey): "The Great One." He has more assists than anyone else has total points. He saw the game in 4D. Michael Jordan (Basketball): The absolute peak of two-way effectiveness (offence and defence) combined with an untouchable psychological "floor." Aleksandr Karelin (Wrestling): "The Experiment." He went 13 years undefeated and didn't concede a single point for six of those years. Pele (Football): The most complete athlete to ever play the game—speed, power, vision, and a two-footed finishing ability that remains the gold standard. Usain Bolt (Athletics): The ceiling of human velocity. His 9.58s was a "teleportation" into a future century of performance. Michael Phelps (Swimming): Effectiveness across multiple disciplines that dwarfed entire nations' medal counts. Roger Federer (Tennis): Specifically 2004–2007. The peak of "effortless" mastery where he appeared to have more time than his opponents. Muhammad Ali (Boxing): The "heavyweight who moved like a featherweight." His peak (pre-exile) redefined what was possible for a man of his size. Bo Jackson (Multi-sport): Perhaps the highest "raw talent" ceiling in history across NFL and MLB. Jonah Lomu (Rugby): A physical anomaly who fundamentally changed how the sport was played. Michael Schumacher (F1): The first to integrate fitness, data, and driving into a single "winning system."14.Jahangir Khan (Squash): Won 555 consecutive matches. A peak of pure physical and mental endurance.15.Eddy Merckx (Cycling): "The Cannibal." He didn't just want to win; he wanted to destroy every rival in every discipline.16.Diego Maradona (Football): For a sustained period (1986-1990), his "solo" impact was the highest the sport has seen.17.Jim Thorpe (Decathlon/Multi): The "Greatest Athlete in the World" of the early 20th century.18.Ronnie O'Sullivan (Snooker): The "Mozart" of the baize. His "147 in 5 minutes" is the peak of hand-eye genius.19.Bill Russell (Basketball): 11 championships in 13 years. The peak of defensive "effectiveness."20.Jesse Owens (Athletics): A peak achieved under the highest possible societal pressure.21.Sugar Ray Robinson (Boxing): Many purists' pick for the greatest "pound-for-pound" talent ever.22.Ayrton Senna (F1): The peak of "one-lap" spiritual commitment and wet-weather feel.23.Jerry Rice (American Football): His statistics compared to his peers are "Bradman-esque" in terms of longevity-peak.24.Valentino Rossi (MotoGP): Specifically the 2001-2005 "Rossi-Honda-Yamaha" transition.25.Jack Nicklaus (Golf): The greatest "clutch" performer and major-championship specialist.26Lionel Messi (Football): For his 2012 peak (91 goals in a calendar year), which sits as the modern statistical mountain.27.Rod Laver) — The only man to win the Calendar Grand Slam twice; his 1962/1969 peaks are the "100% effectiveness" standard.28.Haile Gebrselassie) — Between 1993 and 2000, he was invincible, breaking 27 world records; the "human metronome" of distance running.29.Edwin Moses) — Won 122 consecutive 400m hurdle races over 9 years, 9 months, and 22 days. The peak of technical dominance.30.Garri Kasparov) — Held the World No. 1 ranking for 255 months; at his peak, his "Elo" distance from the field was the largest in chess history.
For a females top 10 it said this (noting though that if legal/valid Flo Jo could be up in top 2, and that Mia Hamm at peak would be there or thereabouts also in effect and in some respects more like a Pele than Marta actually in terms of gameplay/attributes): The Female "Alien" Tier Simone Biles (Gymnastics): The absolute benchmark. She is so far ahead of her field that she performs moves her rivals don't even attempt for safety reasons. She has 30 Olympic and World Championship medals. Serena Williams (Tennis): Specifically her "Serena Slam" peaks. Her power-to-precision ratio was a physical puzzle the rest of the tour couldn't solve for two decades. Marta (Football): The "Pele" of the women's game in terms of pure individual talent. Six-time World Player of the Year; she could decide a game through a single dribble from the halfway line. Esther Vergeer (Wheelchair Tennis): Perhaps the most dominant athlete in history, male or female. She won 470 consecutive matches and 21 Grand Slam singles titles. Katie Ledecky (Swimming): Her distance from the field in the 800m and 1500m is "Bradman-esque." She has often won Olympic finals by half a pool length (10+ seconds). Nadia Comăneci (Gymnastics): The "Perfect 10." She reached the theoretical limit of her sport at age 14, changing the scoring logic of gymnastics forever. Steffi Graf (Tennis): The only player (male or female) to achieve the Golden Slam (all 4 Majors + Olympic Gold in one calendar year, 1988). The ultimate "all-surface" peak. Annika Sörenstam (Golf): The "Tiger Woods" of the LPGA. She is the only woman to shoot a 59 in a professional tournament and won 10 Majors with a clinical, repetitive excellence. Jackie Joyner-Kersee (Athletics): The greatest multi-event athlete. Her Heptathlon world record has stood since 1988; she was the peak of female versatile athleticism. Kaori Icho (Wrestling): As mentioned, the first woman in any sport to win individual gold medals at four consecutive Olympics. She was effectively "un-pinnable" for over a decade.
It's a good list. A notable similarity between Pelé and Michael Jordan is how they rose in decisive matches. Pelé scored in every World Cup final he played and is 2/2 in World Cup finals, as well as 2/2 in Copa Libertadores finals and 2/2 in Intercontinental finals. And Jordan is 6/6 in NBA Finals and 2/2 in the Olympics. They had an aura of invincibility that Messi, LeBron, and others do not have.