PuckVanHeel may have to re-write the history of what position players operated in, since he is adamant in arguing that Diego was no midfield enganche. Good luck with that one.
Yes, that would be nice! Thanks for the stats by the way. But I'm still curious why you think Maradona was a midfielder. Well, Maradona and Platini also scored a lot of goals in the Serie A, about the same amount as Zico in his year at the Serie A. Platini was clearly an AM/playmaker but why Maradona and not Zico? This is somewhat confusing. A typical enganche is according to me Riquelme. A typical deep lying playmaker is Pirlo. It are two different roles! (the roles can be overlapping but the position is different) Agree, but that is my impression of Maradona. His starting position when making the run (without ball) or the position when he receives the ball appears to me as a forward, not midfielder. Again, also given to the traditional tridente of Italian sides. The goal-ratio of Platini was very high too, but I rate the ball skills of Zico a bit higher (except the long balls, that is why Platini could also perform as a deep lying 'Pirlo' midfielder or central midfielder) while I think the brain capacity is roughly the same. Zico was not a boy from the favelas as you know!
Another question: Is Cassano a midfielder? For me: no. Was Riquelme a midfielder? For me: yes. Maybe that clarifies things.
Thanks for sharing the info. I did have the "honor" seeing Cruiff played in NASL with some PK taken- but I did not recall him doing for Barca and Ajax (well I must have missed a lot of his games back then ... ) First bold, who would dare to "limit" Maradona's role (?)... as he was a GOD on pitch ... same thing with Pele, Di Stefano, Cruijff and Zico (at Flamengo) as they had free role with a LICENSE to KILL (games) Thanks for sharing the "assists info" of Maradona and Zico (which I kinda have but not as complete) Last, back to Zico's role and position: - Don't you see your dilemma of assuming Zico's position based on "his goals ratio"? Most great players had the skillset to kill off games (goals) despite of his position i.e. Best, Garrincha, Stefano, Platini and even Boby Charlton all had very good goals record but they were not "forward" perse ... (agree with your comment on Platini - and this SHOULD APPLY perfectly for Zico at Flamengo (as AM and playmaker) - Now based on your assumption (Brazil gaols + Unidese goals as FW >0.75GPG ), the dilemma was that Zico's goals stats at Flamengo was rather low (~0.5GPG) despite of the weaker competition? Believe me IF ZICO was a FW at Flamengo, he would have scored >170 goals (/220games) and won at least 4,5 Brasiliao Topscorer ! I did watch him play at times no less than 60games with Flamengo 79-84. This is from Flamengo's web: "Playing career: While at Flamengo, Zico was a key player during the most glorious period of the team's history. Along with many other titles, in his first period at Flamengo he led the team to victory in the 1981 Copa Libertadores, the 1981 Intercontinental Cup, and four national titles (1980/82/83/87). On the field, Zico made goals in all imaginable ways, was also a great assister and team organizer, and was known for his excellent vision of the field. He was a two-footed player and an expert at free kicks."[3] BIG NOTE; name me any "forward" would have the label as "team organizer" and got an "excellent vision" ? - In fact, Platini also played as a "forward/striker" in his last 2 seasons at Juve and at Euro84. No coincidence, his goals were packed up those occasions.
Yeah, well, he took exactly 14 penalty kicks in his career but I listed only 12 because two penalties were for youth sides when he was 16 years old or so. Forgot to mention that. So: he took 12 and missed 2. Funny statistic from another book about the penalty kick: Beckenbauer took 6 in his Bundesliga career and missed 3. It is also recalled that he refused to take a penalty in euro76. Numerous greats don't like it! Even Pelé is quoted in saying that it is unrelated to the art of football.
Cruijff was indeed equiped with those ... but he was not a "true team organizer" per se ... Of course Cruijff was starting as a FW (false 9) but NOT Zico. Rumemnigge was strictly a FW with some vision (ok) and he was NO team organizer at all. What I meant: Team organizer + Vision + passing/assists = playmaker (Zico)
Cruyff was a real organizer. He just told them where to stand and corrected tactical mistakes of Michels on the pitch. Cruyff had all three capabilities and yet was no playmaker. The term playmaker is somehow confusing because it refers both to a role (duties) and a position on the pitch. Rummenigge: I would say it is the other way around. His vision was quite limited, compared with these three figures, but a relatively good organizer and leader of the team that could maintain the overall discipline at crucial moments (he was able to wake up his teammates).
No problem. I will be glad to inform the forum since these types of details didn't exist before and some may be interested to know. Btw, I will try to upload every highlight of Udinese during the 83/84 season. In the same way that I’m curious why you think he was not ? You stated that in almost every game he played as a second striker, but that’s not true. Relying on youtube flicks is not an accurate way to determine how he operated. But their career goal averages was lower, an indication that they operated deeper than Zico. Zico had a higher goal ratio while Maradona had a higher assists ratio, so who was doing mostly the playmaking ? Maradona. And who was culminating those plays ? Zico. I don’t see them as similar as you suggest. Yes, Riquelme is an inganche as we call them, but so was Diego. Again, I don’t know what you have seen of these players, but to suggest that Maradona was primarily a forward is nonsense. Previously I mentioned that he was on and off as a forward when he was with AJ and Barcelona, but not with Napoli, Sevilla, Boca, Newell’s and the 85-94 NT era. This is why his goal ratio dropped, accompanied by the age and nutrition that started to kick in as his career reached an end. To deny that Maradona was ever a midfield creator is surprising and I don’t think I’ve ever heard of this before. I have seen him play, I’ve read many articles and books and it is well addressed that he was an AM or volante. You are taking into account several of their top scoring seasons but when you compare a Platini/Maradona to Zico in career goal ratio, Zico’s career average is greater than theirs. Both Platini/Maradona are around .51 more or less in their careers; Zico is around .70 Maradona had that ratio in South America in the late 70s and early 80s, but then when he moved to Europe that changed. James, Zico scored 508 goals in 731 games for the senior Flamengo team = .69 http://www.ziconarede.com.br/znrpub/ig_index_hist.htm Look where it says profile. This is basically the same as with the other teams when he was a forward.
Platini in his last season scored 2 goals in Serie A and was normally operating in midfield, rather than sprinting forward into the 18-yard box, as he used to do. He would lead the league in assists in this season.
Look out to see HOW MOST PEOPLE viewed Zico playing style and position - especially you missed his time at Flamengo ... 1- http://english.turkcebilgi.com/Zico Zico Personal information Full name Arthur Antunes Coimbra Date of birth March 3 1953 Place of birth Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Playing position Attacking midfielder (retired) 2- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zico Playing position Attacking Midfielder 3- http://www.wsoccer.com/people/zico/ Position: Midfielder/Forward (Retired); Coach 4 http://www.squidoo.com/Zico-The-Soccer-Player-Profile Position : Playmaker, attacking midfielder 5- http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/zico/profil/spieler_117619.html Nationality: Brazil Position: Midfield - Attacking Midfield 6- http://www.goldenfoot.com/acm-on-line/Home/GoldenFoot/OurChampions/scheda2608.html ZICO Arthur Antunes Coimbra Position: attacking midfielder 7- http://www.footballzz.com/player/zico/1981_1982/profile/111/default/5735 Position Midfielder Preferred foot Right 8- http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/news/newsid=1056822.html (FIFA.com) Tuesday 12 May 2009 Michel Platini and Zico are incontestably among the greatest footballers in history. Having shared their peak and position, and both won a plethora of personal honours, FIFA.com would like to know which of these irresistible No10s you consider the better player? ... Zico began his career with Flamengo, who he propelled to a series of domestic honours, the Copa Libertadores and the Toyota Cup. An irrepressible playmaker, he is also O Mengão's leading all-time marksman. 9- http://www.sportspundit.com/soccer/players/4804-arthur-antunes-coimbra Arthur Antunes Coimbra, commonly known as Zico, is a former Brazilian football player who used to feature prominently during the 1970s and 1980s. He played as an attacking midfielder and is considered as a Brazilian football legend 10-http://www.royoftherovers.com/halloffame/zico.aspx (this is from one of our friend here in BS forum - Roy) Born: 3rd March 1953, Position: Attacking Midfielder 11- http://www.worldfootball.net/spieler_profil/zico/ Zico .:. Club career als Spieler Period-----------------Club-------------National------Position 01/1972 - 06/1983.....Flamengo RJ.........Brazil...........MF 12- http://www.reference.com/browse/ZICO ZICO Arthur Antunes Coimbra (born in March 3,1953), better known as Zico ['zi.ku], is a former Brazilian footballer and coach. Often called the White Pelé, he is commonly considered one of the most skilled dribblers and finishers ever and possibly the world's best player of the early 80's. He was also known as one of history's greatest free kick specialists, able to bend the ball with pace and accuracy as well as having an extremely powerful shot. The gifted midfielder was named by Pelé as one of the top 125 greatest living legends ... and many more .... well I am so tired ... but out of the first 12 website of Zico profile: ALL AGREED Zico was a Midfielder/ playmaker .... =============================================== A common mistake that most people ONLY WATCHED Zico with Brazil NT (WC) and at Unidese (available for European at time) would CONCLUDE Zico as a "forward" - IF Zico was regarded as a Forward, then both Cruijff and Di Stefano would be STRIKERS - at least by their POSITION of their team FORMATION
Beckenbauer didn't refuse taking a penalty in Euro 76. What happened was that he was scheduled as the fifth penalty taker in the shoot-out against Czechoslovakia in the final, but the Czechoslovakians had already won the shoot-out before it was Beckenbauer's turn. It is true though that he wasn't keen on taking penalties (having Gerd Müller on the team also meant that he was not the natural choice anyway for penalties).
You're right, it is recalled here: http://books.google.nl/books?id=6uG...eckenbauer&hl=nl&pg=PA192#v=onepage&q&f=false Was it a myth or so? Very strange that such a great mistake is in a book that investigates all 'failed' penalty-shootouts in detail.
Looks like a very interesting book. I particularly like that it also chronicles friendly games between big tournaments. However that particular page you are quoting isn't showing on my PC. What mistake do you mean? It is correct what the books says and what you quoted: "Beckenbauer braucht in seinen 100. Länderspiel nicht mehr anzutreten" Beckenbauer didn't have to take the penalty in his 100th international game (loosely). That's exactly what happened because the shoot-out was already decided before it was Beckenbauer's turn. So what mistake did you spot?
Yeah, that would be great. Of course you don't see the total movements of a player in the whole match but you see the contacts he make with the ball. As said, I base it on his position and he seems most of the times advanced of his own midfielders. Sometimes you see that the midfielders run past him but at the moment he touches the ball, or the very moment he makes a run towards the ball, he is in an advanced position of his own midfielders. This can be contrasted with a Platini who you can also see standing level with his own midfielders and sending passes towards his forwards from the centre-circle (like his contemporary Glenn Hoddle)! You also see Platini regularly making lateral movements ('Xavi-like' movements), and easing off the pace of the game. That is clearly a sign of being a midfielder, whereas Maradona never eased the gas throttle. Maradona's natural inclination was always to brush forward, and if this wasn't possible to play one-touch-combinations. Combined with his advanced position of the pitch and, lets not forget, the defensive duties Platini had (Juve had three other attackers as you perhaps know), that says to me that Platini was a midfielder/playmaker. Textbook playmakers are the aforementioned Hoddle, Platini, Overath and Netzer (although it has to be said that Platini was also a goalscoring threat). Or that Zico had just an Van Basten/Müller like shot technique. How good or bad Maradona was, everyone has 'weaker' spots for the very top level of football. As James noted, Zico played as a centre-forward at Udinese and stood also more advanced in the Brazil team. If you watch the game of Fluminense against Liverpool you see that also Zico is sometimes sending passes from his own half towards forwards! Those career averages cannot really be compared with each other. You said yourself that Maradona's averages began to drop when he moved towards Europe. Isn't it reasonable to expect that the same would had happened with Zico? It didn't happen and why? Because Zico played for Udinese as a forward. Making assists doesn't equal playmaking. Bergkamp had in his best seasons above 15 assists but wasn't a playmaker. Kluivert had in his best season 18 assists and wasn't a playmaker (he was a textbook false-nine). Indeed, being a second striker makes you more responsible in making assists. Second strikers don't have the job to send long balls or help their defence as much, as compared with midfield-playmakers. Second strikers clear nearer towards the opponents goal, are able to swerve in and around the penalty-box. It is just as likely, even more likely, that these kind of players top the assist ladders. Totti did that for a few years for example. Riquelme though sent a lot of long balls in his career at Villarreal and eased of the pace of the game regularly. He was a clear 'director' of the game. If you mean he was used in Barcelona as a centre-forward (so the most advanced, or second most advanced, player on the field), then I agree. There he played sometimes even nearer towards the most advanced player. My knowledge of Spanish isn't that well but if I'm right the term volante can be decomposed in two roles: the AM role or the second striker role. Correct? (I can be just plain wrong here) Zico's goal average didn't drop, maybe because he began to play as a forward? Just a guess...
No I meant the mistake in the book I paraphrased, that Beckenbauer refused to take a penalty (I didn't imagined that by myself). So not this book (which I believe because it is even used by the author of the book who made that mistake, therefore I found it such a strange mistake).
So therefore I asked if it is perhaps a common myth or so... Btw, you said you have a whole archive of kicker material. How did you ever found that complete That's amazing.
I bought them about 10 years ago from Agon: http://www.agon-antiquariat.de/ 1969, 1972-1976 are complete (but only the Monday issues). The other volumes I can access via my library.
Also searched for those two Monchengladbach games you mentioned. Couldn't find them but you said you found them in the archives of the Austrian television right? Hopefully they will come to the surface on the internet (especially that game against Internazionale).
I guess the two Mönchengladbach games will not surface on the internet, as the circle of guys who invested in buying them out of the TV vaults agreed not to trade them afterwards. Precisely because they resent having to spent lots of money on these purchases while others just wait a couple of months until they get them for free in a trade. Personally I don't mind that but I was only allowed to be involved if I adhered to that. I spent € 1.500 just for my part in the package, so it's a quite expensive hobby (but not just for the 2 Gladbach games, got many more from the vaults).
Yeah, it seems that Germany is in general more active in these sort of things. They have also more books about the history of all kind of football related things, even more than you would expect on the basis of just having 80 million citizens. Therefore I have a couple of German books too in my collection.
Platini played most of the time as a playmaker but he was absolutely lethal when Hidalgo used him as a striker. He played as a striker vs Denmark in the 2nd half (scoring 1 goal), vs Jugoslavia in the 2nd half again (scoring 3 goals), vs Portugal from the moment Lacombe was benched at the 66th minute (scoring 1 goal) and vs Spain in the last 10 minutes. It makes a total of around 150 minutes during which he scored 5 goals (out of 9).