OK, I'm here to ask the experts I'm a long time player, coach and fan who supports the women's game a great deal. But I'm not a ref........ So far from seeing the 3 US games, and bits and pieces of some others, there are quite a few refs here wowfully over their heads, IMO. Phantom calls and penalties, bogus cards/no cards, penalties retaken for no clear reason, strange signals and flag work, ARs pushing back walls etc. I've also noticed a complete absence of male officials, clearly a PC FIFA mandate (persondate? )! In an effort to be PC and have only female refs and ARs are we hurting the competitors by lowering the experence level below that which is acceptable, or is this just the distaff side of the "third world debacle" from the Men's WC? Or, do you guys who are more knowledgble, disagree about what in my opinion is an absolutely abysmal level of refereeing??
Of course the standard of the WWC has been lowered. You have referees out there that would seem outpaced in an U12B game. There's no excuse for it, and this is yet another example of how being PC has gone too far. A tournament that calls itself the World Cup.. be it Men's, Women's, Children's, U-17's, Antelopes, or Zebras MUST have the best officiating available. Fifa's logic in this seems to be that only those of that subclass can referee.. and that's horrid logic. By that logic, only MLS players can referee MLS games.. children are the only ones who can referee their games. It's a joke, it's sad, and almost every team in the cup should send a massive letter of protest to Fifa. WWC First Round wasn't soccer this year, it was more like rugby, and it's because of the officating. I hope they clean it up in the 2nd round. Jarrod
This is a tricky topic to discuss, and I'm not quite sure how to respond. Women haven't had the luxury of professional soccer until very recently. Along those same lines, there hasn't been a push for women officials until recently either. The presense of high caliber women's play is what fuels the desire for high caliber women officials. Without one you would never have the other. Is it really political correctness for FIFA to use only female referees in the WWC? To me it seems more like fairness. The women playing for their countries work very hard to establish reputations of being quality players. What statement would be made to have men ultimately officiate their game in the biggest competition they will ever play? The women officials have worked just as hard as the women players and deserve a chance to be on that stage too. As far as quality, well that goes with growth as well. Would a woman's national team be able to compete with a men's national team? Certainly not as of today. As a result, the officiating ability of women in general will not be the same as you find in the EPL or men's WC. Just like you won't see the same quality official coming out of Jamaica as you would from England. Referees grow with the sport, and I think the WWC referees are an accurate reflection of where the sport is for women in general. In America and a few other countries, our women have the benefit of exposure to the highest level of men's play as well as women. That isn't the case for the majority of other countries. As has been mentioned many times before, Brazil just recently allowed a single female crew to referee a top match -- but it was seen more as a publicity move than breaking down gender barriers. How many other women have done top matches in Brazil since that crew? How many more top men's games has that crew done since their first? I think that says something more than the fact women officiated the game. Unfortunately we can't have Sonia Denouncourt, the Swiss Miss, or Kari Seitz ref every game, just like we can't have USA vs. the 2nd best team in the world for every game (is there really any argument against USA being the best right now?). Sure you could have guys like Collina hop into the center and do the best job you'll ever see, but is that what is best for the sport? Women officials need an international stage to work on their skills too. They need the highest level of exposure possible whenever it is possible. Otherwise women's soccer will continue to grow, but the women officials will be left in the dust. That certainly wouldn't be a good thing!
Is it fair to give the best women players in the world lesser refs just because they are also female?? I have absolutely no problem with having the best female refs here, even if there are hundreds of male refs better than they are(and I'm NOT claiming this is the case) but to have incompetents doing the games merely because of their sex is patronizing to the woman's game, IMO. Let them get experience at the lower levels and work their way up, there have been only 4 WWC's(12 years) and a handful of women's high level leagues ,I find it impossible to believe that all these refs have the proper training and experience to do these games......How many male refs with just a bit over 12 years experience do the WC Final?
Now you're just being absurd and argumentative. You're still talking about FIFA referees -- what games do you think they officiate outside of the WWC? That's right, the very top female (and for some, male) games available in their country. FIFA doesn't select referees, male or female, on a whim. Secondly, you argue these females have only about 12 years of experience at best. A female referee who worked in all WWC's has 12 years INTERNATIONAL experience, plus the years and years of experience she would need to be a FIFA referee. How many male referees with 12 years of international experience ref the men's world cup? All of them! (well, maybe not but you get the point). So it's not like these women haven't paid their dues and not worked through the ranks like any other FIFA referee. And yes, these women are the best of the best of female officials. On the other hand, the WWC is not the highest caliber of games being played in the world right now either. The absolute best FIFA referees are needed more in their own countries on the top national games than they are needed in the WWC. The WWC officiating hasn't been the greatest, but neither have the games. Like I said before, it is reflective of the growth of women's soccer in general. There are a few standout female refs, just like there are a few standout female teams. The rest are there to just keep doing their best and promoting the sport for their country.
On these three points. Many would argue the first. True, in many countries, you work your way up, are conditioned and prepared by your national association, and eventually get accepted by FIFA after your nomination. That oversight is not possible in all cases, however, and geographic distribution of badges seems to also play a role. You have people receiving badges in 'lesser' soccer nations whereas they wouldn't even be considered for nomination in more powerful soccer countries. Second, and this is not a slight to women officials, but it's naive to say that these women have paid their dues just 'like any other FIFA referee'. Most have been 'pushed' at a much faster rate than male referees and many (particularly from other countries) have clearly been pushed too fast. Just as a domestic example, you have mutliple women in the US with FIFA badges that only spent one year as a national referee. That wouldn't happen with men. At least American women have acquitted themselves nicely once they've received the FIFA badge, unlike some from other countries whose inexperience shows. This brings me to the final point. I wholeheartedly disagree with the third point. This is where the political correctness of nationality is even trumping the political correctness of gender. The best of the best female referees are in the USA, no questions asked. In the men's game, people argue if the EPL or Serie A, or other top leagues have the best refs. In the women's game, there is (or was) only one true first division. Week in and week out, USSF's female officials see the top players, the top teams, and get the top training. If this were truly a selection of the 'best of the best' in the world, Sandra Hunt would not be relegated to a fourth official's role. Neither would Jen Bennett.
It’s more like segregationist hypocrisy. They would never admit it, but FIFA appears to like nothing more than banishing women soccer to its own sandbox, under the guise of politic correctness and fairness. How can the women’s game continue to improve WITHOUT the benefit of best refereeing?? How can female referees continue to improve without going through vigorous challenges before earning their promotion?? Moreover, is it fair to throw someone into the fire without proper preparations?? Talk about fairness, this FIFA’s policy is actually blatantly unfair to the female referees and the women’s game.
Well, I do not believe the first two WWCs had all female crews & I would be willing to bet that all these refs do not have 12 years int'l experience nor did they all work one of the prior WWCs. Do you really believe the refs from Togo and Finland,considering the state of their women's teams have that type of experience? And the point should not be that women's soccer is not as good as Men's, therefore the refs do not need to be as good ,but rather, is the refereeing at the level of WWC play, or is it not?? To put it another way, someone like Joy Fawcett has been playing high level women's soccer for 15+ years, should she have a ref who has most likely not even WATCHED, let alone reffed that level for that long??
Statesman and MassRef have adequately addressed the points about the qualifications and level of the referees. I thought I'd comment about one statement in particular -- that which I've bolded above. There have been people talking within this forum about phantom penalties and questionable retakes of penalty kicks, etc. In each case so far, when the proper replay was found, the call was judged to be correct. So just because you didn't understand the call doesn't mean it wasn't correct. Also, regarding the strange signals and flag work, realize that other than the basics, they are not defined in the Laws of the Game. So there are some CUSTOMS that are subtly different from one country to the next. Finally, regarding the AR's setting the walls, that is becoming customary now that when the spot of the kick is deep in the corner near an AR, he or she will spot the kick and/or set the wall. This allows the CR to not have his/her back to the main body of the players and allows play to start more quickly once it's set because the CR doesn't have to retreat to the other side of the field.
Good comments about the calls as well as the procedures and signalling used. I've helped set walls and had my ARs set walls, when appropriate. Other than the players being confused about it, the coverage works well and shows good teamwork. It also let's the CR deal with the biggest potential problem areas - the scrum where the kick is probably directed.
I saw 4 replays of the US corner before the penalty was given v NK and saw nothing, which replay showed something?? And if you don't have strange signals and flag work it is easier for us guys watching on TV to understand the calls..... The AR setting the wall is interesting as it is contrary to my experience, but that was why I asked my questions here, I stand corrected on that one!
Which raises a codicil to my original question. Since I assume that most of the better female refs are from not only the US but also from the other countries with the better women's teams,we would seem to have the situation that as the WWC advances the choices of refs are very limited by conflict of interest. Therefore,the most important games do not have the best and most experienced refs. Wouldn't it be better in this situation to get a top guy like Collina from a country not particpating than "the best female from one of the countries not involved"??? Also,from a learning standpoint wouldn't you like to see a ref like the above do a game with two less experenced female ARs??
Sounds like a lot of US flag waving and hot air to me. I would rate Nelly Viennot from France above the majority of US referees. She made UEFA history in 1999 when she became the first woman to officiate in the UEFA Champions League, running the line for the game between Molde FK and Real Madrid CF. Since then, a considerable number of Champions League and UEFA Cup appointments have come her way. Nelly Viennot was also chosen by the French Football Federation to run the line for referee Eric Poulat at the French Cup final this year between SC Bastia and FC Lorient at the Stade de France. Crowdie.
Nelly from France. That's a good example of a female official from outside the US who has experience at the highest levels and is of top quality. A better example is Sonia Denancourt of Canada, who is probably the best in the world. There are others. These though, are exceptions to the rule. I believe, out of all of Europe, there are only two women who have experienced top-level men's soccer at the UEFA level. That's two referees out of dozens and dozens of FIFA female referees. Plus, their experience is very limited. I don't think it's unreasonable to make the claim that American female referees are the best in the world. With all of the world's top players playing in the same domestic league, and the same referees (American) officiating them week in and week out, to me it seems commonsensical.
I know in Australia and New Zealand that there are a number of female referees who officiate male games. I actually quite enjoy being refereed by women as they don't seem to have as much ego as some of their male counterparts and they generally have excellent person management skills. I think that having women officiating at the women's World Cup provides female referees with a new level to aspire to and is a good thing. Like anything new it will take time to gel but are you telling me that there wasn't problems with the early male World Cups? Good luck to all the officials. Crowdie. PS. You certainly couldn't have a US dominated officials list at this point in time as US relations with the rest of the world has to be at an all time low at the moment. I suspect that if the US tried to dominate the officials list the European teams would give the US the same response that it gave Bush when he tried to get them to join his illegal occupation force in Iraq - No.
Soccer is the one-world game and shouldn't ever be discussed in the same light as governmental politics. Absolutely disgraceful remarks, Crowdie.
In an ideal world you would be correct. FIFA is a political beast just like the UN (hence the reference). Each confederation looks after its own interests first (including international referee assignments). To say that politics doesn't influence FIFA decisions is just naive. I wish it wasn't so. I really do. Crowdie.
We absolutely live in a political world. Choices that FIFA, UEFA, CONCACAF, etc. as well as our national political leaders have many layers of issues which don't always bring out the best results. FIFA's decision to use women referees for the WWC makes sense to me. They are encouraging the players and the referees to reach the highest level. I suspect Nicole Petignat will have the final.
Would you choose to be operated upon by a lesser doctor who had "worked just as hard as the good doctors" on the theory that he or she "deserved" a chance to do the tough operations? We all recognize the realities of politics. However in the ideal world refereees for the World Cup (mens or womens) would be selected from a fine meritocracy regardless of national origin or gender. The Powers That Be may choose to select lesser referees to meet gender or national guidelines or goals but let's not confuse that with the thought that those referees "deserve" their selection. One "deserves" selection to officiate at the highest level by working to become one of the finest officials. It would be far more accurate to say that the players deserve the best referees regardless of gender because the players have put in the time and effort to be the best and FIFA should ensure that the refereeing crews are of equal quality. Jim
You're correct in saying that FIFA, and, moreover, international sports in general, always have a political aspect. So comments regarded the facts related to international relations are relevant. However, opinionated comments (eg, "illegal occupation") and sweeping generalizations that are not grounded in fact ('Europe didn't assist in Iraq...try telling that to the UK, Poland, Italy, Spain, etc., etc.) have no place in a referee forum. Not everyone is going to agree, and there's no reason to start an acrimonious debate on a subject that's clearly off-topic.
I believe that would be unprecedented. I don't think the same referee has ever received the final at the same FIFA tournament in consecutive editions. Then again, if she's the best available, that shouldn't play a role. I suspect Denancourt has a good chance of officiating another final. Won't she be leaving the list soon? Also, if the US should falter in the quarters, Seitz is a possibility.
This analogy is innacurate. I was comparing the referees to the level of the players, not the referees to the level of other referees. My personal opinion is that the level of refereeing in the WWC is an accurate reflection of the level of playing in the WWC. Women's soccer still has much room to grow and is not near the level of men's international play. When and if they do reach that skill level, then you can place demands for the absolute best referees regardless of gender. So long as the women's teams in the WWC aren't the best overall teams in the world playing, they won't get the best overall referees in the world.
I'll answer that point really quickly and then that should be the end of it as the point that decisions within FIFA, including referee appointments, are politically influenced has been made. The only body that has the authority to sanction an armed attack against a sovereign country (ie Iraq) is the United Nations. The US and UK asked for that sanction and it was denied (after France used its veto rights). The US and UK then lead an illegal (as it had not been sanctioned by the UN) attack on Iraq. US and UK forces are still in Iraq so they are occupying the country. Hence it is an illegal occupation. I only used this example to prove a point. If I offended people by using it then I apologise as this was not my intention but it is not an "opinionated comment". Crowdie.
I find it quite interesting that referees, at any level, are so intent on bashing others who have aspired and worked very hard to reach the FIFA level. Disgusting! I believe many need to reread the Code of Conduct and take a long look at themselves. Officiating is Teamwork, not only on the field but off the field also. We should look at each game as 25 to 26 people working together for the good of the game. Period. These Ladies should be commended for working at this level not condemded. Also I find Crowdie's comments completely out of hand. Politics has NO place here. I absolutely agree with Statesman - "Disgraceful". Many of us read these boards to gain information and insight into the world of officiating soccer. The Laws of The Game. Not the Laws of the World.
It's the players game. If they called me and asked me to referee the men's WC group games, I'd decline because I was not ready. Likewise, those not ready should have declined. Maybe players deserve special treatment to get there, but referees don't. It's the players game. They deserve the best officiating they can get and in this WC they did not get anywhere close. Jarrod