PC - Mac flamewar

Discussion in 'Technology' started by Foosinho, Dec 1, 2004.

  1. Microwave

    Microwave New Member

    Sep 22, 1999

    where the hell do you live? CompUSA sells Apple Computers and products and there are apple stores in most malls near where I live.

    Ive already granted that it is frustrating owning a mac and seeing my friends can get tons more software than me (especially videogames) but you have failed to admit that Mac has a better OS and that Macs are better for people making music and video.

    WHY?

    WHY WON'T YOU ADMIT IT??????????????????????????????
     
  2. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    I like my silver powerbook, but I'm a little OD'ed on all the white. The new G5 iMacs are really cool though - and pretty amazing.

    I just really can't stand XP - that annoying clunky sound it makes whenever you click a link, all the annoying reminders and pop-ups, the dreaded Paper Clip (in Office), etc. I really prefer OSX for its genuine simplicity.

    BTW - question that isn't part of the war: since my girlfriend has a VAIO (luckily we vote the same party otherwise it might be tough), anyone know any good games that Macs and PCs can play over wirelesss network?
     
  3. JeffS

    JeffS New Member

    Oct 15, 2001
    Cameron Park, CA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MS Word is one of the main reasons I started looking at alternative platforms in the first place. MS Word, when I'm forced to use it, continually pisses me off to no end. It is so buggy, bloated, over programmed, with horrible, non-sensical defaults, and is so over expensive, that it makes me want to throw my monitor through the window. I absolutely detest MS Word. I had nothing against it when I first started using many years ago (about '95), but grew to absolutely hate it because of the aforementioned reasons.

    IMHO, based on actual working experience, and trying to not be a partisan zealot, other titles like Word Perfect, OpenOffice Writer, Abiword, and Kword all beat the crap out of MS Word.

    If you like MS Word, knock yourself out. But if you are trying to use MS Word as an example as to why you think Windows is better than Mac or Linux, you might want to consider something else. ;)
     
  4. JeffS

    JeffS New Member

    Oct 15, 2001
    Cameron Park, CA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very well said. Here, I'm going to re post what I posted in another thread. Real information about the Windows vs Mac and Linux Security is imperative, because the uniformed will always say security problems only exist in Windows because it's "the big target". Hogwash. Here is what I posted.

    http://www.faqs.org/docs/artu/ch03s02.html#nt_contrast

    I encourage you to read the entire chapter in the link I provided, where Eric Raymond analyses all of the major OS's, with all their strenghs and weaknesses. Of course, Eric Raymond's opinion is not the be all to end all (he even irritates me at times), but he really knows his stuff about OS's and programming. He is a good source for this type of information.

    But to give you a brief description of how Linux (and Unix, upon which Linux is based) works, here are some key points. (BTW, this includes Mac OSX, which is built upon the Unix like BSD).

    1) The Linux kernel (the piece that interacts with the hardware, handles processes, allocates memory, etc) exists in it's own memory space, in a cacoon (if you will). On top of the kernel are the Shells, which are the interfaces to the outside world (the user), and which speak to the kernel.

    2) The GUI desktop environments (like KDE and GNOME) operate on top of the X window system, which in turn operates on top of the kernel, which is protected underneath. The GUI frontend does not operate in the same address space as the kernel, so problems that might occur in the GUI (or separate GUI apps) will not affect the kernel, which will still operate normally.

    3) In Unix/Linux, there is no registry, only config files for the various services and utilities that reside in their own separate directories, thus no "DLL Hell", or "registry bloat", or changes made by programs causing critical system level failures.

    4) In Unix/Linux, there is the root user, then the separate individual users (Unix was designed from the ground up to by multi user and multi process). The root user has access to everything, including services, system level files, and has read, write, and execute privileges on all files. The root user is roughly the equivelant to the Administrator in Windows.

    However, all new users in a Unix/Linux system that are created have their own separate home directories (roughly equivelant to "My Documents" in Windows), and only have read, write, and execute privileges on their own files that they created, or basic program files in the user directory (where most software is installed).

    Basic users do not have write or execute privileges to other users' files by default, unless the other users explicitly give them those privileges (through shell commands). Also, basic users do not have write or execute privileges on any system level files.

    As is standard convention, any running Unix or Linux system is not logged on or running as root, only as a basic user. If a system administrator needs to change configurations or system level files (or needs to do other admin type of stuff), they use the "su" command in the terminal, then do the operation.

    Thus with this type of convention, the Unix and Linux environment is extremely hostile to viruses or any other malware. Any new file (a virus) that gets copied onto Linux is copied as a file under the User who is currently logged on, and only has access to that user's home directory, and has no write or execute privileges on anything else in the system. Thus, because of this simple convention, Unix and Linux systems are virtually immune to viruses. They can receive viruses, and viruses can wreak havoc on a user's home directory, but it can't wreak havoc on the system itself.

    By way of comparison, Windows, by default, creates new users with full Amin privileges. So new files (viruses) have full access to system level files and services, as well as the registry. And with the GUI sharing the same address space as the kernel in Windows, and Internet Explore being tied in with kernel, Windows is like having a million dollar masion in the middle of Compton and leaving all the windows and doors open and nothing locked at all times.

    Okay, now that I've bored everyone with some major points about Unix/Linux security/architecture vs Windows security/architecture, I encourage anyone here to not take my word for it and look into themselves.
     
  5. skipshady

    skipshady New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Orchard St, NYC
    It's funny - I was reading an article a few months back about Apple users who are still using Word 5 on Classic Environment (OS 9 emulator on OS X) because that was faster and more stable than running the latest version.

    And the earlier suggestion that one can't exchange files if you don't have MS Word is an absolute, utter fallacy. You can open and edit .doc files on TextEdit, and you can create .rtf files that can be read on any word processing software. The only time using a .doc file comes in handy is if you want to track changes by multiple authors, but how many people do that? (See: what to say to people who insist on sending Word attachments)
    Plus, to compare AppleWorks to MS Word is quite disingenuous, as AppleWorks is Mac's equivalent to MS Works, not MS Office.
     
  6. Metros Striker10

    Metros Striker10 New Member

    Jul 7, 2001
    Planet Earth
    Skip, you have just pointed out why me and millions of other computer users perfer Windows! EVERYONE HAS IT! PRACTICIALITY! That's it. What is wrong with sharing the same OS that millions of other use? Spyware? I've gone over that already. And if Apples become popular like you wish for them to be...."possible" WILL become "likely" because nothing is perfect, otherwise Windows would use what Apple uses.

    Darknight: if you are going to diss Word because of the stupid paper clip that can be shut off, then I guess that my arguments that Macs suck because they use a stupid one button mouse, a tiny keyboard that was made for the hands 10 year olds, its original desktop interface that hasn't changed at all, the lack of an eject button, the fact that I have to go over and search for the EJECT option which is really annoying and time consuming, the understanding that I can't eject a disk, the horrible window setup- it creates nothing but a mess...every window is open at the same time...what the hell is the point of that?, the annoying fact that I can't open up the CPU, or lack of one, because the monitor is right there, the annoyance that no one uses them, their uber trendyness, the small speakers that they come with, and the known fact that no one bothers to make software for it because NO ONE has one.

    Making software for Macs is like selling Ferarri parts at your local Pep Boys. You can't find them, and when you do, they're more expensive then the PC parts.
     
  7. skipshady

    skipshady New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Orchard St, NYC
    Please explain to me how Word's domination of the word processing market has diddly crap to do with why people prefer Windows.
    Sigh. This has been debunked already. Are you going to tell me to read that article again (Social engineering! Phishing!)?

    Actually, I don't care if Apple doesn't become any more popular than it does now (though I do appreciate your attempt at mind reading). Even with the current market share, Apple machines have lower Total Cost of Ownership than equivalent Windows machines, and there's nothing that I do and want to do on a computer that I can't do on a Mac. Nothing.
    How many obvious false statements did you spot in this paragraph? I counted at least 5.

    And I thought you didn't know of a single mass market program that didn't have a Mac version or an equivalent. And now you're telling me "no one bothers to make software for it"?

    Look, I don't mind engaging in a civil discussion about different operating systems (god, that sounds nerdy as ********) and each platform certainly has its pros and cons. I don't dispute that. But it's hard to have a proper discussion when most of the things you bring up are long-ago debunked myths and outright lies, and you can't even stand by a statement you made less than 24 hours ago.

    You like what you like, that's fine. But don't talk about something when you clearly have very little idea what you're talking about. Just because you perceive something to be true, doesn't mean it is.
     
  8. Microwave

    Microwave New Member

    Sep 22, 1999
    just a reminder since it seems to keep coming up:

    Mac products are not hard to find. CompUSA (everyone has a compusa in their neighborhood) sells Mac. Apple stores are everywhere too. In the midwest there is a computer chain called Microcenter that sells Macs.

    If you give me a zipcode I bet I can find a place that sells Apple within 10 miles of address. The argument that you can't find mac parts is't based in reality.

    oh and if you like....

    www.macmall.com
     
  9. Microwave

    Microwave New Member

    Sep 22, 1999
    skipshady there is one thing that PC's have that mac users don't: Kazaa, which is the best file sharing program out there.

    I know that there is a program called Poisoned Project which purports to tap into kazaa but it isn't the same, Kazaa is far better than Poisoned or Limewire. Limewire is still cool though.

    The asterisk though is that pc users who use kazaa often get viruses.
     
  10. dark knight

    dark knight Super Moderator
    Staff Member

    Dec 15, 1999
    Club:
    New York City FC
    You never finished your sentence, how does it end? (I guess Windows users have trouble maintaining their train of thought.) I'm sure you can turn off the paper clip, but why should I have to spend valuable energy trying to figure out a way to disable it permanently (it still seems to come up whenever I type "Dear....") and besides, the very existence of something so vile in and of itself is good enough reason to shun all things Microsoft. To me, it is the epi-tome of all that is putrescent about Microsoft and Windows. But seriously, I hate that damn paper clip.

    On a less serious note, what the hell is up with Outlook? I know numerous people who have lost work because there is no warning that one's pst file is approaching 2 gigs, the point at which it reaches critical mass (and which is fairly easy to reach in a year's time in this Era of the Pdf).
     
  11. X X I

    X X I Red Card

    Apr 9, 2004
    Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
     
  12. Foosinho

    Foosinho New Member

    Jan 11, 1999
    New Albany, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What's wrong with you people? That's a beautiful case - it's a terrific unique tribute to classic Sci-Fi. Not an unmodified part of the computer - it's all chrome and plexiglass, and all the wires are concealed. You yahoos wouldn't know fine art if it came up and bit you in the ass.

    Here is another case (mid-construction) by the same modder:
    [​IMG]

    Macs are downright boring in comparison to this guy's work.
     
  13. Foosinho

    Foosinho New Member

    Jan 11, 1999
    New Albany, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's only true if the person doing the authoring in Word is considerate of the fact that non-Word users may want to open the file.

    Of course, Word documents weren't really meant to be distributed anyway. A Word document is supposed to be printed or converted to a non-editable digital format prior to distribution.

    Of course, I sent a resume to someone once in PDF format who turned around and asked for a copy in Word format (!!). Sigh. It's too bad people don't know what the hell they are doing.
     
  14. Metros Striker10

    Metros Striker10 New Member

    Jul 7, 2001
    Planet Earth
    That's funny because it never, ever reappears when I shut it off. Valueable time? How about looking for the eject button the desktop? That's gotta be the dumbest idea of all time.

    I really don't know how you missed the end of my sentence. There's a list of things there that simply has convinced me to use XP or any other Windows OS. Dumb or outdated, they've convinced me, the same way that "spyware" has convinced Xp users to switch to OS X.

    Skip:

    Most corporations and probably a really good portion of companys that do serious computer work, use Windows. Now, in the work force, Office will be the most used software bundle that will provide people with word processing, spreadsheet, etc. software. If everyone is using one common tool, it will make communication a lot easier. Most things today are Windows based. So personally, I think that using Windows would be much easier..and again, that's my opinion (if everyone switched to Mac, then that would make things easier too). I think Powerpoint is a good example. Everyone uses Powerpoint, and that's an Office product. I don't know. Maybe you guys have had better experiences in the work force with Apple than with Windows. I don't know.

    Also, those experiences that I had with Macs were generally with G4s and probably OS 9. I've used the new OS X a few times. I can't argue that OS X doesn't look nice on a brand new eMac, because it does. But I personally don't like certain things on the eMac or on OS X. I find the arrangement of the windows to be messy. You can minimize things on Windows and clear the screen, on Macs, thats a bit tougher (if you go to the Finder thing, can you hide everything?).

    Skip, those were my impressions. If there's anything false in there, I'd be glad to know them. And no, I wasn't doing any mind reading. My impression here is that most Mac users want Mac to be the OS of choice, and if that does indeed happen in the future, then they will eventually be beaten by the spyware people.
     
  15. Metros Striker10

    Metros Striker10 New Member

    Jul 7, 2001
    Planet Earth
    Foos, that first computer is nice looking.
     
  16. yimmy

    yimmy Moderator

    Aug 23, 2004
    California
    True, but I don't think that it's because windows is such a great product. Sort of like how ethernet is used almost everywhere but isn't regarded as the best protocol out there
     
  17. skipshady

    skipshady New Member

    Apr 26, 2001
    Orchard St, NYC
    1. You keep going on and on about Microsoft Office, but you still haven't answered my question - what does it have to do with why people want to use Windows? I have no idea why you're bringing up Microsoft Office, of all programs, in a Windows vs Mac discussion.

    In any case, I work in an office that does a of creative stuff - web design, audio & video content - as well as more technical stuff - web app development and other e-commerce stuff- and traditional consulting. It just makes sense for us to have an all-Mac environment because it just simplifies networking and maintenance.

    Most of our clients use Windows, but we have never had a compatibility issue.

    2. Messiness of the desktop
    In a Mac environment, windows are as neat or messy as you want them to be. On Finder, you decide:
    - if files are displayed as icons, lists or columns,
    - if a folder is opened in the same or new window
    - how big icons are
    - whether icons snap into a grid, stagger, or go where they want to
    - if you want files arranged by name, size, type etc
    So if it comes out messy, it's because you chose to be messy.

    Or are you talking about how you can access all open applications? Well, it comes in handy if you want to drag and drop between applications - say, dragging an attachment to email. But you get flustered, you can always minimize windows, hide applications or use Exposé.

    3.The eject button? It's on the top right corner of the keyboard. Now you know.

    4. True, the right click is fantastic, and it is especially handy in in graphics programs. Luckily, control-click does the same thing.

    5. Can't open the CPU? Do you know how to operate a screw driver?

    6. No one uses them? I don't know if it's just the circle I run in, but most people I know use Macs. But maybe that's because I get tired of all my Windows-using friends bitching about their computers all the time.
    Seriously though, every time I go to the Apple Store, it's jam packed, and it's not all people checking email either.

    I think I covered all your complaints. Let me know if I missed anything. I do wish the two button mouse was standard (you'd think the designers can make it look good), but I use my wireless mouse so it's not an issue.
     
  18. Dante

    Dante Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Binghamton, NY
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry, but Poisoned works just as well as Kazaa. It also uses the gnutella, openft and giftd networks so there are even more options.

    besides, Kazaa isn't the best file sharing program out there... bittorrent is.
     
  19. Premium Hamatachi redded

    Sep 9, 2002
    my my my... my dear mac/linux lunatics... i know we windows users outsmarted you and tickled your nerve really bad with countless facts... but all of you are now boiling your blood and ready to evaporate.... not good for your health. i suggest all of you to stop coming here and see your doctor immediately. i assume you are all rich enough to pay your medical bill if you can afford those ugly disgusting overpriced mac products.
     
  20. Premium Hamatachi redded

    Sep 9, 2002
    now you are talking. trust me, they are the most senseless people when it comes to designing. everything that doesn't look white or mac is a crap for them. they will never get bored looking at the same thing over and over as long as it's white and mac. their lack of creativity is second to none but claims mac is better than windows when it comes to designing. it doesn't make any sense at all. no wonder the art in the 21st century has been quite low compared to the era of da vinci and michelangelo. very very sad people those mac users. i feel extremely sorry for them.
     
  21. Premium Hamatachi redded

    Sep 9, 2002
    i am sure you are one of the very few people who understand what's true and what's not in this hopeless thread. but let's not waste too much time on them anymore. imagine that you lived in a tiny pond for 10 yrs and never exposed yourself to a big ocean. it's easy to understand why those mac people never understand whatever we say.
     
  22. Premium Hamatachi redded

    Sep 9, 2002
    you are not entitled to criticize the most amazing word processor in the world just because you don't know how to shut off paper clip feature. that is the lamest excuse i have ever heard and to me, you are just screaming "I'M STUPID I'M STUPID!! WOOOOHHOOOOOOO!!!"
     
  23. Premium Hamatachi redded

    Sep 9, 2002
    i'd rather be happy to fail to admit something that is not true because i don't want to be a liar like you.

    shame shame
     
  24. Premium Hamatachi redded

    Sep 9, 2002
    liar

    liar

    liar

    liar
     
  25. Dante

    Dante Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 19, 1998
    Binghamton, NY
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No, YOU'RE the liar. CompUSA does in fact sell Macs and Mac software. As does Best Buy.

    Again, it's you who's the liar.

    A little pathological aren't we...

    How did you get your yellow card removed?
     

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