I've been noticing a lot of comments the past 2 months about "trade Quaranta" or "he'll never amount to much" or "he's over-rated" or "he's a brat." The kid is what...18? I think the reality of the situation is this: ....some kids don't mature physically (I'm not talking emotionally now, only in terms of their bodies) until later--they have a series of injuries and can't stay healthy. Take a look at Convey's record with injuries his first 3 years--the kid couldn't stay on the field. ...very young players may not be consistent enough to be reliable for a couple of years. I bet everyone on this team would love to have Buddle. He too started out as P-40. Had less impact than Quaranta did his first 3 years. Then exploded this year, impressing enough for people (including Arena) to start talking about him as national team talent. ...an emotional even keel (ie: maturity) for young players is rare. Yes, Quaranta got kicked out of practice a year ago, Stoichkov berates him b/c he wears the wrong shoes, Hudson pushes him b/c he feels he didn't warm up properly. Well, Convey would disappear for stretches in matches, didn't appear very "tough" and wouldn't get "stuck in" and seemed quiet his first couple of years. Santino's emotions are different. But in both cases, each player has needed time to reach the point where they have the attitude and emotional stability to be counted on by their teammates. Bottom line: Santino Quaranta may turn out to be a bust--not all young talents become good pros. But to evaluate the kid on the basis of 3 years (most of which he's been injured) at his age is just silly. It's like reading some of the Metro fans rants at Magee--claiming he isn't tough enough, isn't good enough in the air, disappears for stretches, has a weak first touch. They forget his age and that he's a rookie. It's also an important point about relying heavily on youth. It's rare to find a youngster (and I'm not talking someone with 2-3 years of college--I mean 16, 17, 18 years old) who can come in and play consistently and at a high level. Doesn't mean there isn't a place for those players OR that it isn't CRITICAL to MLS to give those kids PT and opportunities. It just means that relying on them is a roller-coaster ride. All of us need to be far more patient with Santino Quaranta. If the argument is that: "he's a pro and needs to produce right now" than you're arguing that MLS (and DCU) can't afford to give opportunities to teenagers.
Gildea's article on Stoitchkov said that he had picked Quaranta out for special attention, presumably because he saw his underlying talent. If Hristo thinks Santino has, or soon will have, game, that's good enough for me to want to keep him around.
Even though I often get ticked off at him during games and have been known to yell "get him out of there" on occasion (but, heck, I yelled that about Stoichkov against the Crew last weekend), I agree with you, generally, on the notion that developing these really young players isn't an easy process and that the jury is definitely still out on how productive he'll be. The kid shows flashes that he's "got it." He just turned 19 this month. He could break out for us next year in a big way. It's worth keeping him to find out. The comparison to Convey isn't that accurate, though, in that Tino has missed much more time due to injury than Bobby did in his first three seasons. In 2000, Convey played in 22 of 26 games. In 2002, he played in 26 of 28. Only in 2001 was he out for long stretches, having played in just 12 of 26. Tino, on the other hand, played in 16 of 26 in 2001, 11 of 28 in 2002, and 12 of 30 this year. Convey thus played in 75% of games in his first three years (60/80), while Tino has played in just 46% (39/84).
Re: Re: Patience with Quaranta You are correct that Convey has played in more matches. My point though was that other than his rookie year, Bobito than had a series of injuries (broken arm, hernia, groin injury) that raised the question of whether or not he was fragile and could stay healthy enough to be counted on. He's since answered most of the initial questions (even though he'd have to put this down as a disappointing season).. --he can defend. --he will show for the ball. --he will tackle and get "stuck in." --he can finish (though he needs to improve this). --he can stay healthy enough to be a dependable and relied upon key performer. In some ways it may be fairer to compare Quaranta to Buddle (who has physical assets Santino doesn't have but was rawer in starting out and took a number of years before he became a factor). Even then, Buddle was hurt much of this year. We've got questions of Quaranta and he probably needs another year or so before we'll know the answers for sure.
I just get the feeling that Tino is being pulled in too many directions here. But since he is healthy, I guess this means he will be playing on the U20 WC team, which could be good for him. Also it would be nice to see him on the Olympic team. I think being part of the national team will help him realize what he needs to do.
Re: Re: Re: Patience with Quaranta I gotcha. Still, I'd say the question of physical reliability in Tino's case is a much more open question, given that in two of Convey's first three seasons, he was available for nearly all games and in year three, he was nearly an everpresent, rather than Tino's rarely-seen status at a similar age. Still, as I said, I agree with your general point and support the idea that this is a kid with too much talent to cut loose right as he's approaching an age where others have really put it all together.
The problem with that is that he gets injured far too often for him to make an impact on the field. If he can't stay healthy, what makes you think he's worth keeping if he's always on the injured list? At his age, he may be able to bounce back, but there's going to be a point where he says enough is enough. I feel he would be better off playing for another team where, if healthy, he can get more playing time. I think we can trade him to get another player just as capable as him.
There are some players (Josh Wolff is a great example) who have chronic injury problems. But there are other youngsters (and by this I mean pre-20) who's bodies just haven't matured, they get injured a lot and they seem fragile. And then you discover by the time they're 19 or 20 that they've toughened up, the injuries aren't as frequent. They've gone from being a boy (competing against men) to having a man's body. This isn't about height or weight. Michael Owen had this problem where after his "coming out" in the WC, he had 2 years of injury woes where the poor lad couldn't stay healthy and on the pitch. Maybe Santino is Josh Wolff with less speed and a punk attitude. Or maybe he's going to become a more physical version of Clint Mathis in his prime (ie: an explosive player who can seize matches by the scruff of his neck, a special feel for the ball and the goal). I think it's too soon to tell--b/c we're treating Santino now as if he were Dema or even Mark Lisi (ie: someone who was 25 or 28, not just turned 19). BTW, if you could do a Lexus/Nexus search of quotes/comments by Ray Hudson, I bet you wouldn't find a forward in MLS that he's said more positive and glowing things about than he has said about Santino. Argue it's b/c he's Santino's coach but then he should say just as many good things about Serna (when with Miami) or Stewart now or Cerritos or Lassiter or someone. Santino has special qualities. It may not mean he becomes a special player. But the fact that he's pretty darn good at some things AND that he's so young means he deserves patience. Heck, most young players deserve patience.
I guess, but his injury problems are a major minus in my book. I can't think of any player his age or older who has had so many problems in the past two years (except for Josh Wolff).
Actually, the Buddle comparison isn't necessarily the best, but I do agree with Joe that Santino is a huge talent and is progressing despite the injuries. Buddle cut his teeth in the A-League, definitely a step up in competition from Bradenton, but not quite MLS caliber. But, it afforded him a lot of playing time, and he developed. Then he came to a club that had a similar forward, McBride, who was ready willing and able to mentor him. Couple that with a very attack-minded and youth-supportive manager in Andrulis, and the elements were there for him to flourish, and he did. Throw in his best friend for the New York playgrounds being drafted into the team--Kyle Martino--and you have a very good environment to succeed. Santino had a decent environment--similar to Buddle's--when Rongen was coach. But when Rongen left, Santino regressed a little. Hudson is a quote machine and likes to fill people with confidence, when that may not always be exactly what the kids need. Then Trask restricts their creativity and punishes taking chances to the point where the kids are continually second-guessing their own moves on the field, while still being told by Hudson that they're the greatest. All the while, the instructions and positive-reinforcements of doing it correctly are missing. Frustration is bound to set in over time with these conditions. You see it in Santino, Eliseo, Convey, Esky, Carroll, and really all the youth except Stokes. But despite all that, Santino has managed to keep his shot-rate and strike-rate up and refine his long passing game. If it were not for the injuries, we might be talking about how Santino really broke out this year. Regarding the injuries, part of that is the off-season training. Some of it is just unaviodable. McBride is the MLS Jerry Rice, but even he gets injured fairly often. I do think that as Santino gets older his body will become more durable ... at least until about 29, when it'll go back to breaking down regularly again. -Digital
Re: Re: Patience with Quaranta By the way the total games played in their careers including this year is: Convey (including 19 of 30 this year)- 79 of 110=71% Quaranta- 39 of 84=46% Surely one can make a case for which player is more durable from these stats (and that is debatable as Quaranta has played as a forward and has taken more abuse), but not much else. Taking other more telling stats such as total goals, assists and points. Convey- 10G, 9A, 29 Pts. Quaranta- 9G, 8A, 26 Pts. This years numbers are: Convey (19 games)- 2G, 1A, 5 Pts. Quaranta (12 games)- 1G, 3A, 5 Pts. So what we have is someone who has played in twice as many games (in their careers), but has only gotten roughly the same offensive production. Granted, Quaranta has played up top on numerous occasions, but he really is just a midfielder. In all fairness I think people need to give Quaranta a break, or if they are going to be balanced, critize Convey just as much. Cheers.
Re: Re: Re: Patience with Quaranta You give Quaranta "credit" for being roughed up more as a forward, but then call him "just a midfielder" when thinking it fair to compare his stats with Convey (even though he's played forward in the vast majority of his games for us, whatever his true best position is)? Anyway, no, I don't think it's debatable which player has been more durable. Convey had one season of his first three where he missed a large number of games. In the other two, he played 22/26 and 26/28. Tino has had zero out of three seasons where he played in most of the games, with his best year being 16/26, with him getting into just 23 games combined in the last two years. In Convey's worst year he played in slightly more games than Tino did in each of the last two years (12/26 vs. 11/28 and 12/30). And then you add in Convey's fourth year (even though the comparisons were, I thought, meant to cover them at the same stage) where Convey's games missed were in large part because a) he was on our Confederations Cup and Gold Cup teams, and b) he left the team to be sold to Tottenham and later returned, with the attending difficulties. I can't say that's a fair way to bring Convey's games-played percentage down 4 points!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Patience with Quaranta Fair enough, I'll concede that. I'll wholeheartedly agree with this statement.
I think many of us have been blinded by the spectacle of United drafting a player - that the action itself means the guy will be a star so it raises the expectations. While this is the team that signed Eddie Pope and Ben Olsen, we're also the team that went far out of our way to sign Chris Albright (anyone see the open nets he missed last weekend?), re-signed RDA, and completely missed the chance to sign Ralph and Twellman. Santino remains a project. Plain and simple. I'd think we give him another year to see what's under the hood. He had a terrible start to the season then was injured. Better luck next year. Or perhaps by he'll be our playoff hero. One can hope. He's got the ability. But usually after returning from injury, psychology is the last to return to full....
Re: Re: Re: Patience with Quaranta This is a point I have been making to people all season long. Quaranta, when healthy, is a more productive player than Convey. Convey's problem is health, NOT production. and when you look at the numbers (which admittedly never tell the ENTIRE story), Quaranta is basically the equal of Convey despite the fact that he plays half as much. with that type of production, it would be silly to let him go at the tender, just-turned age of 19. this goes doubly so if Convey takes off to Europe next year, which he is expected to do.
This gets to my concern about Santino and his injuries, which may still be just immaturity. I don't think it makes a lot of sense to condemn a guy as fragile just because he misses a lot of games because of injury. It depends on the kind of injury. It may just be bad luck. Ben comes to mind. Broken ankles have nothing to do with conditioning. For that matter, neither do torn knees, which was Santino's (and Ben's and Nick's) latest injury. Still, injuries that come from not warming up properly -- pulled muscles, including groins -- can be prevented or greatly reduced by proper proper warming up. Injuries can also be prevented or reduced by conditioning. Earlier this year, IIRC, when Santino wasn't on the roster for a road trip, he was supposed to be doing PT with the strenght coach, played hookey and was fined. A mature pro doesn't do that. A mature pro takes the best care of his body he can. Maybe its just because Santino is not grown up enough to realize this yet, but he'd better wake up. That said, he seems to have to much potential not to keep him on the roster for another year. A factor in this kind of decision, of course, is salary and its impact on the cap. I don't know what that is, but assume it isn't huge.
I was wondering if anyone else saw this. I was sitting directly behind the bench when Hudson came over. Sounded to me like Ray said something to the effect of "blah, blah, or you'll never play for me again."
Re: Re: Re: Re: Patience with Quaranta Not only is Quaranta just as productive as Bobby in less time, Q1 is also vastly more productive than Tim Howard ever was!!! ManU signed the wrong player!!!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Patience with Quaranta obviously, that is silly. what do 2 midfielders have to do with a goalkeeper? 2 midfielders who play for the same team no less, so there can be no calls of "well, he plays for a better team ......... blah blah blah". Quaranta has been much more productive per game than Convey has. period. and they have done this with the same team. now if management believes that Quaranta doesn't have any work ethic and is a cancer to the team, then fine .......... send Quaranta packing for that, because I wouldn't want that type of guy on the team. But I find these calls to can him on the basis of being injuried and low production pretty inane for a 19 year old who has better stats (outside of games played) than Convey.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Patience with Quaranta I think he was being a little facetious, with some sarcasm thrown in. Anyway these are not 2 midfielders. Convey is an out and out midfielder, but Tino is a tweener. He can play both and has played both, but the majority of his time has been as a forward. It is difficult to compare the production of a forward with a midfielder because there are different expectations for the positions. A forward is paid to score and are expected to score more than a midfielder, maybe more than a few midfielders combined. If you get goals from a midfielder it's nice, if a midfielder is in double digits for goals for a season, it's a huge bonus, but no one expects a midfielder, even a Beckham, Zidane or Scholes, to score in double digits. So Tino has just as many points as Convey in half as many games, they sound about equal to me. If Tino had played a full season he would have had twice as many points (potentially if these things equal out over time) sounds like a pretty good ratio.
all of that would be fine if Santino were not splitting time at forward and midfielder. but the bottom line in any case is that not only does Santino SCORE at a higher rate, but he also dishes out assists at twice the rate of Convey, which is definitely part of what a midfielder is expected to do (although i do agree on the goal scoring without a doubt). My point is not even to say that Quaranta is better than Convey (though i do believe that he has better pure skills than Convey ...... but having skills isn't the end of the story as we both know), but that noone is calling for Conveys head, but people are calling for Quaranta's based on production and injuries. I think its unfair to the kid if he is in fact putting up Convey-type numbers. Once again, if his ATTITUDE is the problem, then by all means, throw him overboard.
Agreed. I'd like to give the kid one more year. Of course, we don't know what his attitude is like--but that should be the reason he goes, if he does.