Owen Hargreaves in Vancouver

...I wish it were possible to impart to you how very little sense the majority of your lame pontifications make. (if they can be called that, I think pontificating requires that you be discernable on the subject)

PG Tips explains the situation from his perspective, which is subjective, and contrary to your perspective, also subjective-and nonsensical-on the subject of another man's patriotism, which even YOUR DUMB ASS has admitted is subjective.

Suddenly you start calling Hargreaves a bitch...could you just do me a favour and TRY to outline your train of thought here?

Also, for bonus marks, try to outline it in a manner that can actually be interpreted by English-speaking human beings.

 

3 things about hargreaves:

1. who can really blame him for going for England-- the mess canadian soccer is in, mainly due to the inept CSA, is where the blame should be put when a young promising player looks for his roots in another soccer country, where he has the hope of playing in the WC-- really now?? can we really have a hope for canada returning to the WC by 2022? only if the CSA stays out of the way of the 3 MLS franchises, but i dont think they will!! the CSA will want to 'run the show' and ruin it for the next few decades, at least that has been their track record

2. he has had 2 serious knee injuries-- his chances are minimal at achieving a significant comeback

3. if he doesn't make it with Man United on real grass, it would be a waste of DP $$$$ for the Caps to sign him when he will be playing on field turf where repeat knee injuries are more frequent

 

What don't you understand little bitch?

They'll let the clubs run their course. I haven't seen any evidence to suggest they would interfere with the MLS teams per say.

 

This is a serious question, I'm not cracking a joke or mocking you on this occasion:

Are you nine-years-old?

Also, you failed to outline it, and subsequently to score bonus marks. You have flunked the internet, I hope you feel special.

 

What makes you think that?

 

You're not explaining anything, and before you edited your post it said:

"What do you understand little bitch?"

Which sounded like you were now calling me a little bitch.

Why is Hargreaves a 'little bitch'?

 

You started the name calling with dumb ass. I just returned the gesture.

As for why Hargreaves is a bitch, he choose to play for a country he had no business playing for. He took advantage of crappy FIFA eligability rules, nothing more. Playing for a country because you have one parent who was born in that country is a joke.

 

MACKSAM-- Patriotism is subjective, but being a bitch isn't. He's a bitch until he proves otherwise. However, I'm being open minded here. I'm willing to give him a second chance if he fulfills the requirements I outlined above.


WHY THE HECK WOULD HARGREAVES WORRY ABUT WHAT YOU THINK? -- you think too highly of yourself and your comments deserve to be disregarded from now on

 

It's a lot more than just me sporty.

 

hargreaves played in Man United game on November 6-- played just 5 minutes and had to be subbed-- hamstring!! after 2 years of surgeries on both knees and rehabing, he lasts 5 minutes

his professional playing days are over IMO-- i take no pleasure- nor should any sporting fan- to see an athlete have so many injuries and maybe have to look at retirement in the prime of his career

no way the caps even consider him a DP, especially when he would have to adjust and play on turf

 

I don't know about over. I think he was just put out too soon. ManU's ranks were thinned out by a virus they got while in Turkey and it sounds like they rushed him back onto the field. I certainly wouldn't want him as a DP if I were a Whitecaps fan though.

 

Karma.

 

Re: Vancouver Whitecaps News Thread & other media

I'm not going to look up all the players you listed but I'd wager that a majority are Canadian citizens. Meaning of course that if they weren't born here they moved here and took out citizenship at some point. That's the difference here. Hargreaves is a Canadian citizen. If you want to play for another country you should take up citizenship there...and go live there.

 

Re: Vancouver Whitecaps News Thread & other media

The thing is, Hargreaves was automatically a British citizen from the day he was born through British nationality laws. He is also equally Canadian. These two points are not even debatable. He already was British and he did move to Britain.

UK nationality laws - http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/b...rnationality/Britishcitizenship/bornoverseas/

Now that the technical part is acknowledged then comes the argument by some that Hargreaves is a traitor. An unnecessary harsh word as a traitor would imply he has betrayed his nation. A word that is usually used when one has legally challenged his citizenship, which he hasn't. Hargreaves could also only choose one country through FIFA rules that he is a citizen of, so either way he had no choice but to pick one. Yes, he could of chosen British constituent country Wales or even Germany(through FIFA laws) but at the end of the day he chose England.

So does he pick a country of his birth or does he pick a place his entire family is from, where some family still lives, and where his family traditions and ethnicity come from? Does birth place outweigh citizenship? The legal rules say it doesn't. His choice is his own and I really don't think it should be questioned. It's not like he went to play for a country where he had no citizenship or direct cultural and ancestral connections and naturalised his citizenship. He already had all of the above with Britain.

So we're left with the grey area of patriotism. This is something that has no legality. It's completely subjective. My feelings on how I feel about Canada may be different from another person's. In Quebec for example you may find plenty of citizens who define Canadian patriotism very differently than someone from Red Deer. But they're all Canadian citizens equally.

We're talking about playing a sport for a country not going into battle with the military or becoming an elected and sworn in member of the Canadian government. Hargreaves playing for England doesn't make him any less a Canadian.

Lastly. If there is hatred for Hargreaves for what people perceive as being a traitor, then why can't these same exaggerated accusations be made for many naturalised citizens playing for the Canada team or past fan favourite Carl Valentine?

Valentine didn't have anything similar to Canada compared to Hargreaves' situation and existing citizenship and family ties to Britain.
Yet Valentine was naturalised as a Canadian citizen in 1983 after being born in Britain and where he played football from his youth before moving to Canada to play for the Whitecaps and the Canada national team. He never played for England, the country of his birth.

Surely Valentine is much worse than Hargreaves if the subjective question of what defines patriotism by Hargreaves haters is brought up.

 

Re: Vancouver Whitecaps News Thread & other media

I am technically British given the fact I was born there. But I moved to Canada at a young age and became a Canadian citizen. Therefore I consider myself Canadian and wouldn't want to play for any other country. You make it sound like I'm not a real Canadian in your mind. Carl Valentines situation is exactly the same. He came to Canada, fell in love with the country and became a Canadian Citizen. Who cares about the rest. He is a Canadian citizen, did not turn his back on his birth countries national team as he was never wanted by England. Totally different from Hargreaves.

 

Re: Vancouver Whitecaps News Thread & other media

I am the same as you and also became Canadian but I'd play for either country as I'm proud of both and see myself as equally British and Canadian. My citizenships and personal feeling towards each can't be

I think you're getting me wrong Krammerhead. What I'm saying is that it is up to each person individually to feel or define what they are and something like patriotism is completely subjective. I don't want somebody telling me how I should feel and I wouldn't do that to somebody else either.

Anyway this subject is probably saved for another thread. Cheers.

 

Re: Vancouver Whitecaps News Thread & other media

if you want to get ultra technical, Canadian citizens are not considered "foriegn" by the British government. Feel free to vote in any British election, Commonwealthers

 

Re: Vancouver Whitecaps News Thread & other media

Technicality and nationality laws mean nothing. He was born and raised in Canada and never lived a day in his life in England before suiting up for them. There is no way he should have played. WHat you feel culturally is irrelavent.

 

Re: Vancouver Whitecaps News Thread & other media

So, it's the accidental circumstances of his birth that matter, as opposed to his personal choices and and feelings?

See, to me I don't really care if he chose England, he has the right to make that choice. What I feel uncomfortable with is the idea of him playing for a Canadian team, and walking around calling himself Canadian, and having the big homecoming marketing campaign.

He chose England, fine. If he feels he's an Englishman, fine, but he's not allowed to just jump back and forth on a whim. Let him be English, that's what Hargreaves chose.

 

Been lurking this thread for a while, so might as well post my own subjective opinion on Hargreaves too. Fair disclosure, since (aside from TopDogg) noone in this thread knows me:

I'm also a dual citizen, though German, not British. Grew up in a predominantly culturally German household, partly in Germany but at this point most of my life in Canada (I'm 33). Up to that point, I agree with much that PGTips says about nationality not being a zero-sum game (though not very much beyond that).

I support the Canadian National Teams and wish them all the best. I also support the German National Team and wish them all the best. (So far, this does not give too many opportunities for seriously split loyalties). Although I have lived in Canada since highschool I don't consider that a plastic position, because I was exposed to the German team (and my local German club side, 3rd generation supporting) before I was in a Canadian context, and continued to follow them while barely being aware of the existence of a Canadian National Team. That has radically shifted over the past several years, and I'm happy to know much more about Canadian clubs, players, and prospects than I ever did before.

Anyhow:

I'm a terrible football player. If I were an incredible football player and were in a position to choose Canada or Germany (and actually be an eligible prospect for either), I would almost certainly choose Germany.

I also think that Hargreaves is pathetic. Contradictory, right?

For me it goes to reason given. I personally don't put too much stock into the idea that players play for their club teams for money but for their national teams for patriotic pride/duty/whatever. I look at the WM and EM and see a talent showcase of players looking to be "discovered", signed to nice contracts, etc. National-team competitions are a giant job fair for up-and-coming elite footballers. Undoubtedly for many players there is also a sincere motivation to play for their country, but ignoring the former, and the motivations inherent in the former, is IMO naive.

I would choose Germany for entirely mercenary reasons, as did Jermaine Jones when he went to the US. I wouldn't, however, lie about it and concoct some bullshit about how I'd never really felt Canadian and my heart always beat for Germany, especially if, like Hargreaves, "Germany" was an utter abstraction because I'd never actually lived there. (My heart does beat for Germany but certainly no more than for Canada; going there now is very familiar but does not feel like "going home", and unlike Hargreaves I actually spent a lot of my formative years there).

I respect Jones for being pragmatically honest about his decision. I think Hargreaves is pathetic for exactly the same reasons. I don't fault his choice; I do fault his lack of courage in simply acknowledging the fact of what was obviously a strategic decision and instead coming up with some lame abstraction about always "feeling English" despite never having set foot in the country.

My entirely unsolicited internet opinion.

 

Allright people, can we just talk about him signing with vancouver. I dont know if i speak for anyone else, but this is a dead horse and i could give a ********.