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Discussion in 'New York Red Bulls' started by MetroZebra, Jul 30, 2002.

  1. MetroZebra

    MetroZebra New Member

    May 24, 2002
    This is a quote from the latest issue of Soccer Digest about Ways to Improve MLS:

    "......the league must face the realization that the cream of the crop will eventually outgrow MLS. Mathis has reached that point and it's more important for him to play in Europe-both for his own development and for MLS. If he leaves, the league can take some of the money it would receive for Mathis-estimates have his transfer fee at $3million to $5million-to acquire and pay second-tier players and put toward player development. And if mathis does well, it could pave the wayfor other worthy Americans to take the leap across the Atlantic at high transfer fees, which also means more money for the league."

    So there you have it. If Metros management plays it right, they can actual be doing a lot to HELP our team when and if Clint goes. But that is a big IF. Sure, I enjoy watching Mathis when he is fit--making great plays, scoring sensational goals, but in the long run we may acquire someone even BETTER than him. The talent is out there, we just need to start looking more closely.
     
  2. NYC

    NYC New Member

    Nov 1, 1999
    So turning our league into a feeder league is doing us good? So much for trying to gain respect.
     
  3. stinky

    stinky New Member

    May 14, 2000
    Long Beach, NY
    with our current salary cap....this is the optimum position for mls to be in....to be considered a source of great players...while retaining a few for the good of the league....

    realistically, the entire teams salary is equal to one very good player in europe...

    what mls needs is a major sponsor (nike, fox, etc) to jump in with both feet and promote the crap out of the league....but no one seems to want to take that risk.....
     
  4. obie

    obie New Member

    Nov 18, 1998
    NY, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Damn straight! If the league is going to limit salaries well below European averages, they will be better long-term if they have a reputation as a place where talent is grown and transfers are a good deal for all parties. More transfers to Europe means more respect in the eyes of the big leagues, more money into the coffers of the league, and more talented young guys coming here from across the US and the rest of the world looking to be the next Clint Mathis.

    ... Or maybe you'd prefer it if we signed Rivaldo and told him to go out and play in front of 3,000 fans in San Jose and Kansas City while Hunt and Anschutz lose millions. Yeah, that'll make us into a serious league.
     
  5. metrocorazon

    metrocorazon Member

    May 14, 2000
    Too bad no one is offering 3M-5M for Mathis anymore. Dont you think he wouldve left if there was an offer like that on the table? With his recent injury and bad form I dont see how anyone is thinking about buying him until he gets back to form in the next WCQs.
     
  6. NYC

    NYC New Member

    Nov 1, 1999
    I don't see why wanting to keep American talent at home translates to me wanting to break the bank to bring over names that will bankrupt the league.

    More transfers to Europe does not mean more respect. Knocking teams out of the World Cup with home-grown talent earns it. Would you rather have the league get a 5 million payday once a year so a player can go sit on the bench somewhere and hurt his national team chances? How much do you think a handful of transfers will erase the league's debt (we haven't seen any this year, and this is the biggest impact we've ever had)?

    How many times have we seen people complain about the quality of MLS and that they won't come to games until it improves? Well the league won't turn a profit until the talent on the field starts bringing in the crowds, and we won't get there by selling off every good young player.

    Basically my point is that selling players to Europe only proves that Americans can play. As far as league credibility, it gets us absolutely nowhere when the best talent prefers to go elsewhere.
     
  7. obie

    obie New Member

    Nov 18, 1998
    NY, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Reading your posts, it appears that what you want is MLS to look like a great league to the rest of the world. The only ways to do that are to start playing in the big-time transfer market (which MLS won't) or to have our players move into other leagues at good prices and play well against better competition.

    No US league will be successful in the eyes of the major leagues if its players are unproven on the world stage. The WC is not frequent enough to make people say "wow, that MLS is really good." Mathis, DMB, or whoever ripping it up in Europe on a weekly basis would.

    Meanwhile, keep in mind that the typical MLS contract is not nearly as long as the typical Euro league contract. If MLS doesn't sell Mathis this year, he'll leave on a free transfer. Same result as above, we hope, but MLS gets squat for it.
     
  8. stinky

    stinky New Member

    May 14, 2000
    Long Beach, NY
    the quality will amazingly improve when the atmosphere at the games improves....i truly believe a lot of it is perception...

    i've seen worst epl games being played, but because of the singing, the crowds, the field, etc...the quality seems better...

    its hard to bring someone to a game or watch one on tv and convince someone the quality really is good when there's only 6k in the stands..
     
  9. Ron Ferguson

    Ron Ferguson New Member

    Dec 12, 1998
    I can't speak for you, stank, but it's not that the quality seems better, it's just a more exciting event with organic atmosphere. metro may not get better once at their own ground, but it will be a more exciting event when 25,000 people fill the place and they are all able to feed off of each other's energy.

    More towards your point, though, if those 25,000 really do rock the house, make no mistake, the team will feed off of that energy and perhaps the will get better.
     
  10. NYC

    NYC New Member

    Nov 1, 1999
    No, I don't give two shits what people think because I'm American. It seems you are the one worried about impressing your Eurosnobs.

    The World Cup is the only place many of these people get exposure to our players. Do you think these Chinese and Korean players getting Serie B contracts now are getting them as a result of the J and K leagues?

    For every good player coming out (potentially), there's a handful of Eddie Lewis' languishing on Fulham's reserve bench. And Reyna is only ripping up the Premiership's midtable.

    From all accounts I've heard, MLS has been tying young players into long-term contracts. And your typical Euro-league contract is only 2-3 years anyway, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

    Mathis may think he's leaving, but he didn't have the WC all of us expected him to, and he's certainly not having the breakout year in MLS that will impress foreign clubs. Hook him and others like him up with supplemental Pepsi contracts and build the league from the bottom up.
     
  11. bukie2k

    bukie2k Member

    Mar 28, 2002
    New Jersey
    Gaining a reputation as a feeder league sounds like a step in the right direction. It might not bring in the big money at first but eventually/hopefully other leagues would be willing to pay the big transfer fees for American players on a regular basis. Of course this means not having the homegrown stars playing in MLS but indications are if one leaves there will be others to fill the void. These things just take time.
     
  12. gosya

    gosya Member

    Feb 6, 2001
    New York
    We keep talking about SSS and how they will save the league. To build those stadiums, the league needs cash. No $3-5 million may not seem a lot, but you Mathis, Beasley & Wolff (or someone) and you probably scrape up $15 mil, about 1/3 the cost of SSS in Dallas. Don't tell me this doesn't help.
    Sure, the presense of these players will bring in more revenue over time, but the league is facing liquidity problems today with a slow economy and limited revenue streams.
    The way players from countries earn respect is from playing WC, EC, etc, but also from performing in domestic leagues. Nigerians, for example, never had a WC like ours, but they were able to build a name for the country by playing well once they are bought by Euro teams. This, in turn, will build value for players coming up down the road.
    Holland has been a feeder league for years, but the passion is there, and most importantly their teams are in better financial position than Lazio, Roma, Nantes, etc.
    I'd rather have financially viable league 10 years from now with diversified revenue stream than enjoy Mathis play at GS (paying $100K per game) for the next 10 years.
     
  13. NYC

    NYC New Member

    Nov 1, 1999
    The arguments are getting all over the place now, but if you let your best talent go, you can kiss attendance goodbye, and television revenue along with it.

    Transfers out of the league will have nothing to do with stadiums. Those are the responsibility of the owner/investors.

    I don't know what people's obsession is with getting respect for the league. I'm more concerned with having the overall quality improve. Getting rid of the best talent is counterproductive to that.
     
  14. GIO17

    GIO17 Member

    Nov 29, 1998
    I see all these posts about how we should be exactly like Europe or if we allow Clint, DMB, or McBride to get a full transfer to European Clubs that will help the league get the respect world wide. Why? don't we deserve to watch these players play infront of? And besides look at Landon Donovan & Taylor Twellman, they never got a fair shake with their clubs in europe. They came home to develop their skills and now Landon has returned to San Jose from the World Cup wanting to stay in MLS, because Bayer Leverkusen refused to play him, and Twellman is scoring alot of Goals for New England.

    At the same time to hell what Europe thinks, they are an arrogant old man that assumes what he did or what he does or how succesful they are, no one can match him. MLS wasn't built for Europes approval. MLS was built to 1. Improve soccer in the USA, 2. To help the National Team & compete in the World Cup, 3. To make the sport grow and to make our clubs household names. If anyone wants to say they like the MetroStars and wants to start supporting them, I will be the first to shake their hand and welcome them aboard. But if they are going to sneer at us and keep talking alot of BS to hell with them.

    It's easy to support a club from Europe, but when the USA finally gets the respect and MLS will get their stadiums built, everything will be different.

    As I quote Bruce Arena "are we at the level of an England, Germany, Brazil, no, but the Gap is getting smaller."
     
  15. obie

    obie New Member

    Nov 18, 1998
    NY, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    First of all, I'm much more concerned about the financial viability of MLS long term than I am about what Eurosnobs think of the league. I don't have a favorite foreign league, a favorite foreign team, etc. But you should agree that, if you look at the last few years, the increased quality of play within MLS hasn't increased its footprint on the American sports landscape. Attendance is stagnant, ratings are stagnant, etc.

    Is the game more interesting for the fans in attendance when Clint is out there? Yes. Does Clint's prescence help attendance or ratings or column space in the papers? Really, no. Does San Jose bring in more fans now that Landon has been on Letterman? No. And that's the #1 issue for this league right now -- not the quality of play, which has improved and continues to improve, but the ability to say that it's a viable pro sport here. We could be the greatest league in the world quality-wise, but if attendance stays at 2001 levels with both Miami and Tampa folded, and the espn2 ratings hover around 0.3, the league will fail.

    Given that our few major talents haven't had any effect on attendance or ratings, what's the reason to hold on to the three or four guys who (a) have expressed an interest in moving, and (b) are good enough to play in a better league for a lot more money somewhere else? You and I are showing up tomorrow night whether Clint's there or not, right?

    Given the current state of the league, transfer fees are a viable form of revenue that cannot be ignored. If a player wants to leave and the financial situation is right, why should we stop him? Why should we tell Clint that he has to tough it out at $200K a year in MLS for the good of the league if five times that pay is waiting for him in Germany? If he's got lucrative and challenging options elsewhere, how can we honestly say that MLS is the best choice for him?

    Meanwhile, transfers for somebody like Clint or DMB look really good to the players who someday want one themselves. For example, take someone like Joselito Vaca. If Vaca has aspirations to be a big global star someday, MLS could be the stepping stone that he wants while he sharpens his considerable talent in Dallas. But his kind only will come here if they believe that MLS will help him move toward their ultimate goal. That means MLS offers the Vaca types development and experience, but it also means good relationships with international clubs and, if possible, the right transfer opportunity at the right time.

    Playing the transfer market as a seller OR a buyer makes MLS stronger financially. The diehard fans may miss the one or two guys who leave short-term, but they'll be replaced by a new crop who come from all over with a desire to follow in the footsteps of those who left. Long term this improves, not dilutes, the quality of play on the field. It's how leagues all over the world have operated for decades.
     
  16. NYC

    NYC New Member

    Nov 1, 1999
    Well then we simply disagree on what's more important financially. You can't tell me that one or two transfers out at five million each if we're lucky will even begin to put a dent in the over 200 million the league has lost so far. The biggest cost right now is paying rediculous rents to NFL teams and getting no money from all the extras.

    That whole "I'm showing up no matter what" is starting to wear thin as well. If the league continues to sign Gazzas and Costacurtas over Conveys and Bocanegras, the Metro and the league can kiss my money goodbye.
     
  17. obie

    obie New Member

    Nov 18, 1998
    NY, NY
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed about current costs & rent issues, but we all have to forget about that $200 million figure as some hole out of which the league needs to dig if they're going to consider themselves successful. Everything lost to date is a sunk cost, so just forget about it. We have to look at current profit & loss going forward. That's what the future value of the league and its teams will be based on. $10 million in transfer fees could be difference between an operating loss and an operating profit for the 2002 season. And if MLS turns any operating profit, new investors will be more interested in it.

    Agreed that aging fat Euro wife-beating drunks are not the future of MLS.
     
  18. MetroZebra

    MetroZebra New Member

    May 24, 2002
    I think that the best thing of all is that soccer is on the rise for sure in the USA. Even if we are a "feeder" league, it shows that we constantly have up and coming players that eventually will have a place on a Euro. team. Who wouldn't want to keep all of their homegrown talent? What I'm saying is that we have to be realistic and make the most out of the transfers that will eventually--and--inevitably occurr.

    Good point about the Korean players gaining popularity. It certainly isn't going to come from the K-League. It came from WC--international performance is leading to big contracts with Euro. clubs. Why can't we expect the same for the USA players who did very well at WC and proved they could hang with just about anyone.

    MLS is stifling itself by trying to keep all of its talent here. There are up and coming stars out there. Look around. Players now are way better in college and know that there is opportunity in the USA to play in a competitive league right here in MLS. These players should have their chances too.
     

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